Panjabi: Shahmukhi double character/gemination

Pvitr

Member
Panjabi
In Gurmukhi the symbol ੱ is used to represent a double/geminated sound, to differentiate between (eg)

know ਪਤਾ/pataa
leaf ਪੱਤਾ/pattaa (gemination on the 't')

BTW I believe the term is 'gemination' is correct, but I could be wrong!. If you are a Panjabi speaker I hope this will make sense anyway as both words are pronounced differently, the stress shifts a bit and the sound of the 'geminated' character is longer.

Can someone tell me how this is done in Shahmukhi script? Thank you. (If you could give the name of the character/eg of usage with the above words that would be helpful)
 
  • Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    ّ (symbol) شدّہ، تشدید - shaddah, tashdiid
    • gemination - تشدید - tashdiid
    • geminated - مشدّد - mushaddad

    پتا - pataa
    پتّا - pattaa

    More examples:

    • وٹّا - vaTTaa
    • حقّ، شکّ، وغیرہ - Haqq, shakk, waGhairah
    • پتّھر، تھپّڑ، وغیرہ - patthar, thappaR,waGhairah
     

    amiramir

    Senior Member
    English-USA
    [Edit: Crossposting. Alfaaz got there before me, as usual with a better answer!]

    Gemination is the right word. For gurmukhi ਖੱਟਾ (khatta), I presume in Shahmukhi it would be the same convention as in Urdu

    کَھّٹا -- i.e. with the squiggly tashdiid.

     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    [Edit: Crossposting. Alfaaz got there before me, as usual with a better answer!]

    Gemination is the right word. For gurmukhi ਖੱਟਾ (khatta), I presume in Shahmukhi it would be the same convention as in Urdu

    کَھّٹا -- i.e. with the squiggly tashdiid.

    Except that the tashdiid is over the letter being geminated, in this case ٹ T and not کھ kh as is the case with Gurmukhi. So, the word is کھٹّا khaTTaa (sour).
     

    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    As an additional point would you add gemination to the following words?

    one: ਇਕ ik or ਇੱਕ ikk

    in: ਵਿਚ vic or ਵਿੱਚ vicc

    Except that the tashdiid is over the letter being geminated, in this case ٹ T and not کھ kh as is the case with Gurmukhi. So, the word is کھٹّا khaTTaa (sour).
    In Gurmukhi the adhak ੱ is not actually placed on the character before, it is more in between the two characters.

    ّ (symbol) شدّہ، تشدید - shaddah, tashdiid
    Is there any difference between the two terms? I notice most 2 replies use 'tashdiid'.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    As an additional point would you add gemination to the following words?

    one: ਇਕ ik or ਇੱਕ ikk

    in: ਵਿਚ vic or ਵਿੱਚ vicc


    In Gurmukhi the adhak ੱ is not actually placed on the character before, it is more in between the two characters.


    Is there any difference between the two terms? I notice most 2 replies use 'tashdiid'.
    Well, I would say the adhak is not placed between the two characters. If this was the case, no part of it (the adhak) would be over the previous letter.

    There are in fact three possibilities for the word for gemination. "shadd", "shaddah" and "tashdiid". Take your pick.
     

    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    Well, I would say the adhak is not placed between the two characters. If this was the case, no part of it (the adhak) would be over the previous letter.
    I phrased it incorrectly. In Gurmukhi all the characters of a word are joined (by the top bar), no spaces - unlike Shahmukhi I think as certain letters are not joined (?). The adhak does not sit directly above the first character, nor does it sit directly above the geminated character. It sits on the space between. Yes, you're right that it is not between the 2 characters themselves. (Not sure if that explanation is any clearer, but it's irrelevant to the topic anyway.)
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    In Gurmukhi the symbol ੱ is used to represent a double/geminated sound, to differentiate between (eg)
    Well it's not a one-to-one situation. While in Shahmukhi only one symbol is needed to indicate any gemination — in Gurmukhi you'd need to use one of three symbols that serve the purpose.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    The adhak does not sit directly above the first character, nor does it sit directly above the geminated character. It sits on the space between.
    It seems you are talking about the print characters - even then, the placing of addhak depends on the typographic design.
     

    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    Would be very interested to know if there is any gemination on the following words in Shahmukhi script.

    one: ਇਕ ik or ਇੱਕ ikk

    in: ਵਿਚ vic or ਵਿੱਚ vicc

    Do words that end in a consonant (without any vowels applied to it) ever have that final consonant geminated when written in Shahmukhi?
     
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    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    Tippi, bindu, and addhak
    That is not correct.

    In Gurmukhi script there is only 1 character for gemination. That is: ੱ (adhdhak - ?transliteration may be off but the dh character is geminated).

    There are two characters used for nasalization of vowels (I am not a linguist so not sure of the terminology - basically they add an 'n' sound)

    ੰ tippii - for short vowels eg ਪਿੰਡ piṅd village
    ਂ bindii (not bindu) - for long vowels/diphthongs eg ਮੈਂ maiṅ I

    (Again my transliteration may be off, but I think these words are fairly common for Panjabi speakers, so hopefully you get the gist).

    Just goes to show how inadequate the latin script can be when attempting to handle Indic languages - and how well suited indic scripts are to the sound systems of their languages!
     
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    Au101

    Senior Member
    England, English (UK)
    That is not correct.

    In Gurmukhi script there is only 1 character for gemination. That is: ੱ (adhdhak - ?transliteration may be off but the dh character is geminated).

    There are two characters used for nasalization of vowels (I am not a linguist so not sure of the terminology - basically they add an 'n' sound)

    ੰ tippii - for short vowels eg ਪਿੰਡ piṅd village
    ਂ bindii (not bindu) - for long vowels/diphthongs eg ਮੈਂ maiṅ I

    (Again my transliteration may be off, but I think these words are fairly common for Panjabi speakers, so hopefully you get the gist).

    Just goes to show how inadequate the latin script can be when attempting to handle Indic languages - and how well suited indic scripts are to the sound systems of their languages!

    marrish is correct. Addak is not used to geminate m and n, ṭippī must be used, e.g. ਲੰਮੀ lammī 'long'. However, I am not aware of any examples of bindī being used for this, but I would trust marrish more than myself.
     

    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    marrish is correct. Addak is not used to geminate m and n
    mmm...Perhaps I misunderstood what Marrish was saying. If you look in any (basic) Panjabi/Gurmukhi grammar book you learn that adhdhak is used for gemination, which is what I was saying.

    I had not considered the '_ ੰਮ' combination, it's an interesting point. However I am not sure if that combination of sounds is considered gemination. The tippii is still used for nazalisation.

    I wonder how Shahmukhi represents words like this? Would be helpful if someone could provide e.g. ਲੰਮੀ lammī 'long' in Shahmukhi, to know whether it is geminated.

    As always there are many layers to the topic... I look forward to discovering more.
     
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    Au101

    Senior Member
    England, English (UK)
    Okay I'll do my best. As I'm sure you know, India has its own rich tradition of linguistics and linguistic analysis going back to Panini and, before him, certain of the Vedangas. In Europe as well we have our grammatical traditions generally inherited from classical grammars of Latin and Greek. I can't really talk about those very much, but I bring them up because sometimes the way we might look at something in a schoolroom - whether we're studying a foreign language or our own - may not correspond exactly to the way we look at things in modern, international, academic linguistics. And that's totally fine because modern linguistics is trying to take a very rigorous, (more) scientific approach that (although it has borrowed traditional concepts and traditional terminology) applies more universally and takes account of more languages. Whereas in a schoolroom we're not necessarily trying to keep our fingers on the latest technical linguistics research, we're trying to teach people to read and write and spell and communicate. So I make no comment on how Gurmukhi spelling may be taught to foreign students of the language, or to children in India, I will talk only from the point of view of modern linguistics. Although in modern linguistics too there are times where people may not agree on definitions or classifications or how a particular phenomenon should be interpreted. Phonetics and phonology, in my experience, seem to be particularly open to interpretation. For example, the term 'retroflex' is defined by Wikpedia as

    A retroflex, apico-domal, or cacuminal (/kæˈkjuːmɪnəl/) consonant is a coronal consonant where the tongue has a flat, concave, or even curled shape, and is articulated between the alveolar ridge and the hard palate.

    Note the three choices of tongue shape and a nice wide window of possible positions.

    Leaving that aside.

    You are quite correct, gemination is the correct word for lengthening a consonant. You give a perfect example. In ਪੱਤਾ pattā the t is held for longer - it takes longer to say - than the t in ਪਤਾ patā. In Gurmukhi this is indeed marked by the addhak as you say.

    Turning now to nasalisation. Consider the word ਮੈਂ maiṁ. In this case we have a nasalised vowel, the vowel is pronounced with some of the air flowing through the nose giving a distinctive sound.

    In a word like ਪਿੰਡ piṇḍ, what we have is a nasal consonant before the following . Thus ਪਿੰਡ piṇḍ is equivalent to ਪਿਣਡ. In modern linguistics terminology, we say that the ṭippī represents a nasal consonant that is "homorganic" (pronounced in the same place) with the following consonant. Thus, while in ਪਿੰਡ piṇḍ, the ṭippī represents a ਣ , in ਸਿੰਘ siṅgh it represent a ਙ . This generally would be considered a consonant, not a vowel. The i in piṇḍ, and siṅgh may be slightly nasalised, simply on account of occurring just before a nasal consonant, just like the a in ਅਨਾਰ anār might be slightly nasalised, but my understanding at least is that that would usually be considered incidental. Now there is an important difference between these two phenomena - the nasalised vowel and the nasal consonant homorganic with the following consonant. I don't know if it's easy to illustrate in Punjabi, but it's very easy in Hindi. मँगवाना mãgvānā should, theoretically, be pronounced with a nasal vowel and no clearly discernable ङ sound (as in sing). Theoretically, it should sound different to गंगा = गङ्गा = gaṅgā, which should have a clear consonant sound. Some speakers may not make this distinction, or may not notice, I can make no comment on that, but अँग and अंग are theoretically different.

    Now, in the case of ਲੰਮੀ lammī what we have (so I have been told) is the equivalent of गंगा = गङ्गा. We have the nasal consonant homorganic with the following consonant. So in this case, the ṭippī represents m, just as it does in ਕੰਬਲ kambal (I believe this means 'blanket', but I know almost no Punjabi, so perhaps this isn't really used; I know it is in Hindi). For this reason, we have here a double, or geminated m, which is why my books at least tell me

    Note that addak is not used to geminate m and n.
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Pvitr said:
    Do words that end in a consonant (without any vowels applied to it) ever have that final consonant geminated when written in Shahmukhi?
    Apart from exercise books for learners or children's learning books, diacritics are not regularly used in Arabic-based scripts (Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Panjabi, Balochi, Sindhi, etc. etc.).

    Terminal gemination is usually not indicated for most words, except for those that might have religious significance such as
    rabb and Haqq. Both words are geminated in Arabic, so it is retained in other languages (Urdu, Punjabi, etc.) as well.

    In poetry, terminal gemination might be indicated for meter, etc. (Forum members who are experts in this field could hopefully shed further light on potential reasons.) Another reason might simply be aesthetics.

    • Example: In this Panjabi piece by Anwar Masood, vichch is written with a tashdiid in the third couplet, but without it in the fourth couplet.
    Otherwise (in prose, etc.), it is usually assumed that the reader would be aware of the correct pronunciations. Diacritics are written when verses from the Quran are quoted. Other cases when diacritics might be included were mentioned in the following relevant quote from Urdu: Diacritic marks.
    Alfaaz said:
    mundiya said:
    Are all of the diacritic marks usually left out in writing or only some of them? Which ones?
    Most are usually left out, but the following often appear to be included:
    • tanween in words like فوراً - faur_an
    • khaRii zabar in words like تقویٰ - taqwaa
    • zer for an izaafat
    • tashdeed (مسکن - maskan vs. مسکّن - musakkin/musakkan)
    • Harakaat/diacritic marks for words from other languages, for words that are not commonly used, or words that have identical spelling and would be difficult to differentiate from context alone (اِس - is, اُس - us; اِن - in, اُن - un; منتظَر - muntazar, منتظِر - muntazir; etc.)

    Pvitr said:
    I wonder how Shahmukhi represents words like this? Would be helpful if someone could provide e.g. ਲੰਮੀ lammī 'long' in Shahmukhi, to know whether it is geminated.
    Example from a Puniabi nazm:
    لمّی رات سی دردِ فراق والی
    تیرے قول تے اساں وساہ کر کے
    کَوڑا گُھٹ کیتی مٹھڑے یار میرے
    مٹھڑے یار میرے، جانی یار میرے
    تیرے قول تے اساں وساہ کر کے
    ...

    فیض احمد فیض از شامِ شہرِ یاراں

    Transliteration:

    lammii raat sii dard-e-firaaq vaalii
    tere qaul te asaaN visaah kar ke
    kauRaa ghuT kiitii miThRe yaar mere
    miThRe yaar mere, jaanii yaar mere
    tere qaul te asaaN visaah kar ke
    ...

    Faiz Ahmad Faiz az shaam-e-shahr-e-yaaraaN


    The complete piece (and book) is currently available here.
     
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    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    Thank you to everyone for sharing your knowledge - and particularly to Marrish for opening a doorway to knowledge that I didn't know existing!
    the ṭippī represents a nasal consonant that is "homorganic" (pronounced in the same place) with the following consonant
    Au101-thanks for the extensive information. I shall have to reread it to try to understand it fully - as I said previously I'm no linguist.

    So on a basic level (and returning to the issue of gemination) are you saying that adhdhak geminates all characters other than m/n?

    PS I would say that ਕੰਬਲ kambal (blanket) is indeed widely used.
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I am not aware of any examples of bindī being used for this
    By way of illustration.
    انّی ਉਂਨੀ (੧੯/19)
    انّا ਉਂਨਾ (that much), but
    کنّا ਕਿੰਨਾ (how much) needs Tippii.
    Any corrections are very welcome.
    So in this case, the ṭippī represents m, just as it does in ਕੰਬਲ kambal (I believe this means 'blanket', but I know almost no Punjabi, so perhaps this isn't really used; I know it is in Hindi)
    Yes, you are right on all the three counts — Tippii does represent m in this word although not gemination itself. The basic meaning is 'blanket' and, even though it is used (I can't be possibly specific in any way about that) the Punjabi word as I know it is,,
    کمّل، کمّلی
    ਕੰਮਲ/ਕੰਮਲ਼ੀ
    (a shawl/blanket) e.g. کالی کمّلی والے kaalii kammLii vaale (an epithet of the Prophet Muhammadّؐ).

    BTW, I'm just wondering if there's any spelling difference between "19" and "unnii" 'that much (f.). but I'm short on spare time as of nowadays ;); there's a difference in/(of?) the pitch accent (tone) between the two words.
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you to everyone for sharing your knowledge - and particularly to Marrish for opening a doorway to knowledge that I didn't know existing!
    You are very welcome and so am I equally grateful and indebted to all participants. Someone will be thankful to you for having posed the question.
     
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    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    The point about ਂ (bindi) and gemination is interesting.
    I'm just wondering if there's any spelling difference between "19" and "unnii" 'that much (f.)
    For the examples given by Marrish the Gurmukhi spellings don't necessarily mirror the Shahmukhi (or vice versa):

    انّی ਉਂਨੀ (੧੯/19) - spelling is ਉੱਨੀ (unnii) which is an 'adhdhak+n' combination
    انّا ਉਂਨਾ (that much) - spelling is ਓਨਾ / ਓਨੀ (m. onaa/f. onii) which demonstrates that bindii is used to gemination 'n' I believe as mentioned upstream.

    (Spellings from shabdkosh/Punjab Uni are the same). Obvs, differing pronunciations may well exist.

    However, my grammar books do point out that there are some special cases of u+nasalisation (expanding on the rules of which form of nasalisation to use for which vowel) so I wonder if there is some linguistic reason for this? ie a word with u/uu+n combination.
     
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