Panjabi: Usually

Pvitr

Member
Panjabi
Is there an exact equivalent for 'usually' in Panjabi? There are phrases which can be used but am struggling to find the exact word.
Have tried searching net and this forum.
How would you say eg
'He usually walks to school'.
Thanks in advance.
 
  • marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Your question, Pvitr, is very intriguing but also you have put emphasis on the exactness you need. So it would be much easier (for everyone) to come up with something useful for you if we knew how you would've said the example sentence yourself in the target language, (for the moment making use of any of the inexact phrases). Perhaps you could also share with us one phrase or two that didn't pass your mark? It's guaranty of getting replies!
     

    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    Hello marrish, I don't have an exact phrase to translate. My issue is that I often think in Engish and translate to Panjabi in everyday life, and I struggle to find a word for 'usually'.

    The following options may be useful depending on the situation, but none of them mean 'usually':
    • aam tor te (in an ordinary situation)
    • nit (daily)
    • har roz (every day)
    Perhaps this is just one of those areas where there is an intrinsic difference in the way the language is used and so no translatin exists. Any further ideas would be useful.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    MonsieurGonzalito said:
    رِواجن
    رَواجًا
    Pvitr said:
    The following options may be useful depending on the situation, but none of them mean 'usually':
    • aam tor te (in an ordinary situation)
    3aamm taur te - generally, commonly, usually, ordinarily, normally; etc.

    Other options: bil-3umuum, 3umuum-an, ma3muul-an; etc.

    He usually walks to school.

    • oh 3aam taur te paidal (hii) school jaandaa ae.
    • oh 3umuum-an Turr/tur/chal ke school jaandaa ae.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    3aamm taur te - generally, commonly, usually, ordinarily, normally; etc.

    Other options: bil-3umuum, 3umuum-an, ma3muul-an; etc.
    "'amuuman"/"umuuman" and "ma3muulii tôr te" were the ones I had in mind as exact equivalents of 'usually'.
    These are also quite usual words themselves. I don't know why but I think bil-3umuum and ma3muul-an aren't that much in use.

    Hello marrish, I don't have an exact phrase to translate. My issue is that I often think in Engish and translate to Panjabi in everyday life, and I struggle to find a word for 'usually'.

    The following options may be useful depending on the situation, but none of them mean 'usually':
    • aam tor te (in an ordinary situation)
    • nit (daily)
    • har roz (every day)
    Perhaps this is just one of those areas where there is an intrinsic difference in the way the language is used and so no translatin exists. Any further ideas would be useful.
    Thanks for elaborating.

    I don't think we have this issue here; it's rather a normal situation where there are several semantically close words in English on the one hand and similarly a number of semantically near words or phrases in Punjabi. Each set displays a variety of near-synonyms or similar words and the preference for a particular one over another is governed by each language's internal logic and usage. It's a common occurrence that only a part of the semantic field is shared between a pair of words from different languages, ie. the match is only partial and each word serves other ends as well in its language.

    My thinking is that the reason for which Punjabi doesn't seem to have such a word (which would be commonly used) is the apparent lack of need for it since 'aam tôr te and aksar do.

    Re. intrinsic difference, think of translating "too" as in "too much, too strong", etc. in Punjabi :idea:

    NB It might be difficult for some to say aksar :arrow: pronouncing it *askar instead.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    marrish said:
    I don't know why but I think bil-3umuum and ma3muul-an aren't that much in use.
    Yes, they are certainly less common in speech (especially colloquial), but they do seem to be still used occasionally in writing.
    marrish said:
    Would your representation suggest a sound different from taur?
     

    bakshink

    Senior Member
    punjabi
    Yes, they are certainly less common in speech (especially colloquial), but they do seem to be still used occasionally in writing.Would your representation suggest a sound different from taur?
    Certainly not in the Indian side of Punjab
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, they are certainly less common in speech (especially colloquial), but they do seem to be still used occasionally in writing.Would your representation suggest a sound different from taur?
    I don't believe an average Punjabi speaker pronounces it correctly as taur but more often than not as tor. In fact I would go further. The diphthongs -ai and -ai as in shaix and taur are a dying breed in Urdu. It seems that Dari speakers of Afghnasitan pronounce them how they ought be pronounced (leaving aside Standard Arabic speakers). I remember starting a thread on this topic in the past.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Qureshpor said:
    I don't believe an average Punjabi speaker pronounces it correctly as taur but more often than not as tor. In fact I would go further. The diphthongs -ai and -ai as in shaix and taur are a dying breed in Urdu. It seems that Dari speakers of Afghnasitan pronounce them how they ought be pronounced (leaving aside Standard Arabic speakers).
    It seems the key word in your description is average...!?
    • As had been discussed in multiple older threads and from what I have observed, the correct pronunciations have been and (for the most part) continue to be used at least in media (both Punjabi and Urdu, as well as other languages). Of course, the majority of people involved have either studied languages as part of their formal education and/or received training in pronunciation/diction/elocution prior to appearing on television. Therefore, they might not be an accurate representation of common speakers.
    Interestingly, it seems the opposite phenomenon may sometimes occur in certain instances. (BP SaaHib had mentioned this for کریلہ and ڈکیت in your thread. There are also safed/safaid, pakoRaa/pakauRaa, bhoNDaa/bhauNDaa, etc.)
    Qureshpor said:
    I remember starting a thread on this topic in the past.
    Urdu-Hindi: Are the diphthongs disappearing?
     

    Pvitr

    Member
    Panjabi
    NB It might be difficult for some to say aksar :arrow: pronouncing it *askar instead.

    I don't believe I've ever heard it (mis-?)pronounced as 'askar' - always as aksar - although this word tends to be used by journalists/politicians rather more than in colloquial speech from my experience.


    ਰਿਵਾਜਨ / رِواجن ?
    I don't believe this would work - rivaaz/rivaaj has always meant 'custom' to me and so rivaajn would seem to convey an associated meaning.

    For everyone commenting on taur vs tor - apologies as that was due to my mistaken transliteration. One has to use the diphthong (ਤੌਰ) otherwise we get 'tor' (ਤੋਰ) meaning (?)style of walking.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    marrish said:
    Sure thing! But they'll stay the same when uttered by a L1 Punjabi speaker.
    In that case, which one would it be? Could you provide an audio example if possible?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    "'amuuman"/"umuuman" and "ma3muulii tôr te" were the ones I had in mind as exact equivalents of 'usually'.

    These are also quite usual words themselves. I don't know why but I think bil-3umuum and ma3muul-an aren't that much in use......

    NB It might be difficult for some to say aksar :arrow: pronouncing it *askar instead.
    Couple of points marrish SaaHib.

    I am sure there must be a TheTh word in Punjabi for usually. I shall try to find out and then will come back to this thread.

    For reasons unbeknown to me, in Punjabi there are words that appear to be complete opposite in spelling to their Urdu equivalents. Two such words readily come to mind. One is chikkaR for Urdu kiichaR and the other is bojaa for the Urdu jaib/jeb. Following this pattern there indeed is the word ashkar for the Urdu aksar for "often" but not for "usually".
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you for your observations, QP SaaHib. If there is such a word it would be great if you'd be able to find out more about it.

    This phenomenon of letter inversion is also there in Urdu, similarly. See this (SR Faruqi luGhaat-e-rozmarrah)

    چھکلا --- دیکھئے چھکل۔ اول مکسور، دہلی، علاقۂ پورب میں اور اودھی کے خطے میں بھی کم پڑھے لکھے لوگ اور خاص کر پھل ترکاریوں کے کاروباری لوگ "چھلکا" کو الٹ کر "چھکلا" بولتے ہیں۔ بلکہ دہلی میں تو یہ روزمرہ عام ہے۔ چھوٹے چھلکے، یا چھوٹے موٹے خار و خس کو دہلی میں "چھکل" (سوم مشدد مفتوح) بولتے ہیں۔ دیکھئے "تقدیم و تاخیر حروف، تلفظ میں"۔


    chhiklaa --- dekhi'e chhikkal. awwal maksuur, dihlii, 3ilaaqa-e-puurab meN aur awadhii ke xitte meN bhii kam paRhe likhe log aur xaas kar phal tarkaariyoN ke kaarobaarii log "chhilkaa" ko ulaT kar "chhiklaa" bolte haiN. balkih dihlii meN to yih rozmarra-e-3aam hae. chhoTe
    chhilke, yaa chhoTe moTe xaar-o-xas ko dihlii meN "chikkal" (sivvum mushaddad maftuuH) bolte haiN. dekhi'e "taqdiim-o-taaxiir-e-Huruuf, talaffuz meN".


    and, in the referenced entry, we can find more Urdu examples of this mechanism:

    تقدیم و تاخیر حروف، تلفظ میں
    بعض الفاظ کا عوامی یا عامیانہ تلفظ حرفوں کی تقدیم و تاخیر سے بنتا ہے، مثلاً:

    taqdiim-o-taa'xiir-e-Huruuf, talaffuz meN
    ba3z alfaaz kaa 3awaamii yaa 3aamiyaanah talaffuz HarfoN kii taqdiim-o-taaxiir se bantaa hae, masal·an:

    ارمود؍امرود؛ الینڈنا؍انڈیلنا؛ برام؍بیمار؛ چھکلا؍چھلکا؛ حریان [حیران]؛ [سفیل]؍فصیل؛ نکھلؤ؍لکھنؤ

    armuud/amruud; uleNDnaa/uNDelnaa; biraam/biimaar; chhiklaa/chhilkaa; Haryaan/Hairaan; safiil/fasiil; nakhla'uu/lakhna'uu

    ایسے چند لفظ اور بھی ہیں مثلاً مطبل [بجاے مطلب] جو بعض علاقوں میں صرف کم پڑھے لکھوں کی زبان پر ہے، یا مزاحییہ انداز میں کبھی کبھی بول دیا جاتا ہے۔ تلفظ میں اس تغیر کی وجہ نہ معلوم ہو سکی لیکن بعض تغیر بہت پرانے ہیں۔ ارمود بمعنی امرود کا اندراج برہان قاطع میں ہے جو ۱۰۸۲ مطابق ۱۶۷۱؍۱۶۷۲ میں مکمل ہوئی۔ برہان میں تو امروت بھی ہے لیکن معنی صاف نہیں بیان کئے۔ صفیل اور برام کے علاوہ درجِ بالا سب تلفظ بلا تفریق علاقہ ہر جگہ سنے گئے ہیں۔ ملحوظ رہے کہ تقلیب حروف کی یہ صورت صرف اردو میں ہے۔

    aise chand lafz aur bhii haiN masal·an matbal (bajaae matlab) jo ba3z 3ilaaqoN meN sirf kam paRhe likhoN kii zabaan par hae, yaa mizaaHiyah andaaz meN kabhii kabhii bol diyaa jaataa hae. talaffuz meN is taGhayyur kii wajh nah ma3luum ho sakii lekin ba3z taGhayyur bahut puraane haiN. armuud bama3ne amruud kaa indiraaj burhaan-e-qaati3 meN hae jo 1082 mutaabiq 1671/1672 meN mukammal hu'ii. burhaan meN to amruut bhii hae lekin ma3ne saaf nahiiN bayaan ki'e. 'safiil' aur 'biraam' ke 3ilaawah darj-e-baalaa sab talaffuz bilaa tafriiq-e-3ilaaqah har jagah sune ga'e haiN. malHuuz rahe kih taqliib-e-Huruuf kii yih suurat sirf urduu meN hae.

    مطبل — اول سوم مفتوح۔ دہلی سے لے کر دور کے پوربی علاقوں تک "مطلب" کا عوامی تلفظ "مطبل" ہے لیکن یہ پڑھے لکھوں کی زبان پر رائج نہیں۔


    matbal — awwal siwwum maftuuH. dihlii se le kar duur ke puurbii 3ilaaqoN tak "matlab" ka 3awaamii talaffuz "matbal" hae lekin yih paRhe likhoN kii zabaan par raa'ij nahiiN.

    نکھلؤ
    —اودھ کے علاقے میں کم پڑھے لکھے لوگ، اور کچھ شہری لوگ بھی "لکھنؤ" کو "نکھلؤ" کہتے ہیں۔

    nakhla'uu — awadh ke 3ilaaqe meN kam paRhe likhe log, aur kuchh shahrii log bhii "lakhna'uu" ko "nakhla'uu" kahte haiN.

    الینڈنا
    — اول مضموم، دوم مفتوح بمعنی انڈیلنا۔ یہ بہت دلچسپ لفظ ہے کیونکہ یہ انڈیلنا کے حروف میں رد و بدل سے بنا ہے۔ محمد حسین آزاد نے سودا کے بیان میں ان کا ایک مطلع نقل کیا ہے جس میں الینڈ کا لفظ ہے اور بعض لوگوں نے گمان کیا ہے کہ یہ کوئی فرضی لفظ ہے۔ آسی کے مرتبہ کلیات سودا میں وہ غزل نہیں ہے جس کے مطلعے میں الینڈ نظم ہوا ہے۔ اس سے اور بھی شک گذرتا تھا کہ شاید یہ شعر ہی الحاقی ہو۔ لیکن باجرہ ولی الحق کی مرتبہ غزلیات سودا میں وہ غزل موجود ہے (آب حیات میں اس مطلعے کا متن کچھ مختلف ہے) ؎


    uleNDnaa — awwal mazmuum, duvvum maftuuH bama3ne uNDelna. yih bahut dilchasp lafz hae kyoNkih yih uNDelna ke Huruuf meN radd-o-badal se banaa hae. muHammad Hussain aazaad ne saudaa ke bayaan meN un kaa ek matla3 naql kiyaa hae jis meN uleND kaa lafz hae aur ba3z logoN ne gumaan kiyaa hae kih yih ko'ii farzii lafz hae. aasii ke murattabah kulliyaat-e-saudaa meN vuh Ghazal nahiiN hae jis ke matl3e meN uleND nazm hu'aa hae. is se aur bhii shak guzartaa thaa kih shaayad yih shi3r hii ilHaaqii ho. lekin baajrah walii-ul-Haq kii murattabah Ghazaliyaat-e-saudaa meN wuh Ghazal maujuud hae (aab-e-Hayaat meN us matl3e ka matn kuchh muxtalif hae):
    ترکش الینڈ سینہ عالم کا چھان مارا مژگاں کے بان نے تو ارجن کا بان مارا

    tarkash uleND siina-e-3aalam kaa chhaan maaraa — miZhgaaN ke baan ne to arjun kaa baan maaraa
    انشا نے بھی یہ لفظ برتا ہے اور حق یہ ہے کہ خوب برتا ہے ؎

    Inshaa ne bhii yih lafz bartaa hae aur Haq yih hae kih xuub bartaa hae:-
    جی یہ چاہے ہے ابھی شیشۂ صہبا کو الینڈ شمع سے دیجے لگا چادر مہتاب میں آگ

    jii yih chaahe hae abhii shiisha-e-sahbaa ko uleND — sham3 se diije lagaa chaadar-e-mahtaab meN aag


    برام
    — اودھ اور پورب کے دیہاتوں میں بیمار کو بمار مع اول مکسور مجہول بولتے ہیں۔ اس کی تقلیب برام مع اول مکسور مجہول بھوج پوری کے علاقے میں سننے میں آتی ہے۔

    biraam — awadh aur puurab ke dehaatoN meN biimaar ko bimaar ma3 awwal maksuur maj_huul bolte haiN. is kii taqliib biraam ma3 awwal maksuur maj_huul bhoj puurii ke 3ilaaqe meN sun_ne meN aatii hae.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you marrish SaaHib for a detailed expose of this phenomenon. I always thought matbal for matlab was a Punjabi thing coming from illiterate speakers!

    I wonder if ikaTThaa and ikhaTTaa also belong to this category.

    If I do find out the proper Punjab word for usually, I shall get back to you
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you marrish SaaHib for a detailed expose of this phenomenon. I always thought matbal for matlab was a Punjabi thing coming from illiterate speakers!

    I wonder if ikaTThaa and ikhaTTaa also belong to this category.
    I've added some bits of information I could still find. It used to be my view too, regarding 'matbal', and 'adkar'.
     

    bakshink

    Senior Member
    punjabi
    Ah, I had forgotten about the latter. We pronounce it as adkaR!
    May be initially it was to make the tongue twisters easier to speak, but later it became a sort of accepted practice in Punjabi speaking community. My grandmother couldn't speak Luckhnow and when asked to speak it, she would say "khauu" and we as children would break in to splits of laughter but reflecting back today I think, why many or should I say most of the people speak Ambarsar for Amritsar and Lauhr for Lahore, Raulpindi for Rawalpindi and names are always distorted. My uncles Satish was called Teesha and Som was called Soma. In Punjab if some one is named as Jetinder he would almost certainly be called as Jeeta if he doesn't have a nickname and Jasbir Kaur will be called Bhiree even if she has a nickname, so let's not devise new words where they don't exist. There are no hard and fast rules here. Lehsun ( Garlic) is thom, Baingan ( Brinjal) is Vatayun, Pyaz ( Onion is Gandda and Shalgam ( Turnips) are Gonglu but then everyone doesn't use them even if he/she knows them.
     
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