Persian: اى كسانى كه ايمان آورده ايد

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Ali Smith

Senior Member
Urdu - Pakistan
سلام!

همانا خداوند وفرشتگان بر پيامبر درود مى فرستند؛ اى كسانى كه ايمان آورده ايد! بر او درود بفرستيد، وسلام بگوييد، سلام نيكو

I know imaan aavordan means "to have faith", but why is the verb آورده ايد instead of آورديد?

متشکرم
 
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  • mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Ali Smith, سلام. For those who have converted to the faith, we use eemaan aavarde eed, The Present Perfect Tense.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Thanks! What about اى كسانى كه ايمان آورديد! بر او درود بفرستيد، وسلام بگوييد، سلام نيكو? Would it have been grammatically wrong or have meant something different?

    By the way, isn't آوردن (to bring) pronounced aavordan? I think native speakers say "baad aavorde-raa baad mibarad".
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Thanks! What about اى كسانى كه ايمان آورديد! بر او درود بفرستيد، وسلام بگوييد، سلام نيكو? Would it have been grammatically wrong or have meant something different?
    It is grammatically correct but this message is addressing the newly converted rather than the previously converted so آورده ايد is correctly used, the difference is the same as in English between 'have converted' and 'converted' آورديد.

    imaan aavordan means "to have faith"
    ایمان آوردن means "to accept the faith" literally "bring [oneself] to the faith"

    ایمان داشتن here is "to have the faith", it could just mean "to have faith".
     
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    taraa

    Senior Member
    Persian
    It is grammatically correct but this message is addressing the newly converted rather than the previously converted so آورده ايد is correctly used, the difference is the same as in English between 'have converted' and 'converted' آورديد.

    ایمان آوردن means "to accept the faith" literally "bring [oneself] to the faith"

    ایمان داشتن here is "to have the faith", it could just mean "to have faith".
    Many thanks. :thank you: :thank you: :thank you:
    So we should say ' have accepted the faith' or ' have converted to the faith ', please?
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    So we should say ' have accepted the faith' or ' have converted to the faith ', please?
    Both are correct and mean the same but for me there are small differences in some contexts. The picture in my mind is (overthinking :)), someone is addressing a group of newly converted, if s/he uses 'accepted' it suggests there may have been persuasion involved, coercive or otherwise, whereas 'converted' glosses over those things and therefore politically correct & less contentious.
     
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    taraa

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Both are correct and mean the same but for me there are small differences in some contexts. The picture in my mind is (overthinking :)), someone is addressing a group of newly converted, if s/he uses 'accepted' it suggests there may have been persuasion involved, coercive or otherwise, whereas 'converted' glosses over those things and therefore politically correct & less contentious.
    Excellent. Many thanks dear PersoLatin. :thank you: :thank you:
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Both are correct and mean the same but for me there are small differences in some contexts. The picture in my mind is (overthinking :)), someone is addressing a group of newly converted, if s/he uses 'accepted' it suggests there may have been persuasion involved, coercive or otherwise, whereas 'converted' glosses over those things and therefore politically correct & less contentious.
    The "someone" is God in the Qur'an and the sentence in the OP is a direct translation of:

    yaa ayyuha_llaziinaa aamanuu..................................

    aamanuu is in the past tense and this can be translated as "O those who believed" but in English and Persian (and Urdu), it makes more sense if the translation is...

    O those who have come to believe........In the past, they did not have this particular belief but now they are amongst those who are believers. Some translators go for the present tense..

    O those who believe.

    So one can summarise this as...

    no belief > have come to believe/have believed > believe

    iimaan na-daashtand > iimaan aavurdah-and > iimaan daarand

    In Arabic, some grammar expersts suggest that we should not think in terms of past and present etc but whether the action is complete or incomplete. So, in "aamaanuu", the act of believing has reached the point of completion.

    The Qur'anic ayat is إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا
     
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    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    I really thought the question in the opening post was about an inflection Ali Smith was unfamiliar with; didn’t realize he was checking it against the original in Arabic. I suppose this is why context is always helpful. As for pronunciation, if one is reciting, then it is always aavarde eed. It is only when speaking that aavorde eed tends to replace the complete spelling: آوَرده‌اید.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I really thought the question in the opening post was about an inflection Ali Smith was unfamiliar with; didn’t realize he was checking it against the original in Arabic. I suppose this is why context is always helpful. As for pronunciation, if one is reciting, then it is always aavarde eed. It is only when speaking that aavorde eed tends to replace the complete spelling: آوَرده‌اید.
    mannushka Jaan. He may not have had the Arabic in mind. It was just obvious to me that this was a translation of the Arabic.
     

    taraa

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Both are correct and mean the same but for me there are small differences in some contexts. The picture in my mind is (overthinking :)), someone is addressing a group of newly converted, if s/he uses 'accepted' it suggests there may have been persuasion involved, coercive or otherwise, whereas 'converted' glosses over those things and therefore politically correct & less contentious.
    Do you use 'believe'/'belief' instead of 'faith', please?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thanks! What about اى كسانى كه ايمان آورديد! بر او درود بفرستيد، وسلام بگوييد، سلام نيكو? Would it have been grammatically wrong or have meant something different? By the way, isn't آوردن (to bring) pronounced aavordan? I think native speakers say "baad aavorde-raa baad mibarad".
    If the translation had been اى كسانى كه ايمان آورديد, this would have implied to the Persian speaker that the address was meant for people in the past and is done and over with. But آورده ايد, though still theoratically bearing a past meaning, has the effect of continuing down to the present.
     
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