Persian: به سر رسد

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wannabee.farsi.nerd

New Member
English - America
Hello,

There is a phrase I have come across, and I'm having trouble grasping what it means. An example is from a Khayyam rubaiyat. Relevant portion I'm struggling with is bolded and in the subject line.

چون عمر به سر رسد چه شیرین و چه تلخ
I translated this as "as life ends, whether sweet or bitter." I know سر = head/top, and رسد as a noun is share/portion, but together I'm having trouble what this means; it seems like a phrase/compound noun, rather than individual words that should be read separately.
 
  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A rod has two ends and from one end to the other end is سر تا سر.

    Think of life as a span and the end of it is سر

    So...

    When one's life reaches the end whether (it was) sweet or bitter....

    "rasad" is a verb in the مُضارع format/tense.
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Be sar ressad is a compound verb.
    Infinitive: be sar resseedan, to reach the end after a length of time.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    چون عمر به سر رسد چه شیرین و چه تلخ
    سر in به سرآمدن/رسیدن means 'the top/head/upper most', so 'reach/come to the top', same as in سر رفتن/go to the top, which in day-to-day language means 'to spill over', e.g. when boiling milk or when a vessel is overfilled, one can imagine the body as a vessel holding life/time, به سر رسیدن is when the vessel is full (the process ends) with life/time, good or bad.

    There's another saying جان به لب رسیدن (life reaching one's lips "to reach one's limit of tolerance"), here life/جان doesn't reach/رسیدن as far as the top/سر, only to the lips/لب.
     
    Last edited:

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Is there a tashdiid on the "s" in the verb "rasiidan" رَسِیدن?
    No, there isn’t. It is good that you asked, though. The doubling of the ‘s’ is just my way of ensuring nobody pronounces the letter like a ‘z’.

    Incidentally, the س in question does not take a kasre.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    No, there isn’t. It is good that you asked, though. The doubling of the ‘s’ is just my way of ensuring nobody pronounces the letter like a ‘z’.

    Incidentally, the س in question does not take a kasre.
    I see. The double s is your own style. I believe the siin does have a kasra which is then followed by a ye to give the sound "sii". But we will not worry about this as we will be going off topic.
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Ascertaining how the verb in question is normally written makes this remark relevant to the topic. Giving the ‘s’ a kasre is supposed to alter the ‘see’ to a ‘say’: re-say-dan, which is non-standard.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Ascertaining how the verb in question is normally written makes this remark relevant to the topic. Giving the ‘s’ a kasre is supposed to alter the ‘see’ to a ‘say’: re-say-dan, which is non-standard.
    I think you may be misintrpreting something that I am saying. This is how I would spell out "rasiidan" in the Persian script. The direction of writing, needless to say, is from right to left.

    ر + زبر + س + زیر +ی+دال+زبر +ن = رسیدن

    If you spell it in any other way, that's fine with me.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    جا نم به لبم
    ر + زبر + س + زیر +ی+دال+زبر +ن = رسیدن
    Using your convention, رسیدن in modern Iranian Persian is:
    ر + زبر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
    Or
    ر + زیر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    جا نم به لبم
    Using your convention, رسیدن in modern Iranian Persian is:
    ر + زبر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
    Or
    ر + زیر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
    Well, PeroLatin, the convention that we have been brought up is this.

    a = alif +zabar
    aa = alif + zabar +alif = alif + madd on top
    baa = be + zabar + alif

    Similarly..

    i = alf + zer
    ii = alif +zer +ye
    bii= be +zer +ye and
    sii therefore = siin+zer+ye

    Likewise,

    u= alif +pesh
    uu= alif +pesh +vaa'o
    buu= be +pesh+vaa'o

    We also have two dipthongs and two majhuul vowels which you know all about.
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Thank you, Qureshpor, for elaborating.

    Does this convention exist in the Urdu script? Or are you saying this is acceptable to (some) Persian writers? Who is the “we” in your post above?

    In any case it is good to know that such a difference can exist.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    جا نم به لبم
    Using your convention, رسیدن in modern Iranian Persian is:
    ر + زبر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
    Or
    ر + زیر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
    Sorry everyone, جا نم به لبم is a phantom piece of text, please ignore. (it was left in the panel when I wrote post #4)
     
    Last edited:

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you, Qureshpor, for elaborating.

    Does this convention exist in the Urdu script? Or are you saying this is acceptable to (some) Persian writers? Who is the “we” in your post above?

    In any case it is good to know that such a difference can exist.
    This convention has been passed on from the Arabic script into Persian, Urdu and other Arabic based scripts with one main difference. In Arabic, no word begins with a vowel.

    So,

    a = hamza + fatHah (hamzah sitting on top of an alif which is only the bearer of the hamzah)
    aa = hamzah + fatHah (sitting on an alif as above) + alif of prolongation = آ

    In کــَتَبَنِی kataba-nii (He wrote to me), in the suffix "nii" we have a nuun + kasrah + yaa2

    The "sii" in rasiidan" would therefore be spelt as سِی. In Arabic, the final ye, you will no doubt know, is given two dots unless it belongs to an الاسم المقصور such as الھدی , موسی and لیلی etc.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Sorry everyone, جا نم به لبم is a phantom piece of text, please ignore.
    That's good to know. I thought you had had enough of me and were in the process of writing..:)

    خدایا، جانم به لبم رسیده است، مرا نجات ده
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Well, PeroLatin, the convention that we have been brought up is this.

    a = alif +zabar
    aa = alif + zabar +alif = alif + madd on top
    baa = be + zabar + alif

    Similarly..

    i = alf + zer
    ii = alif +zer +ye
    bii= be +zer +ye and
    sii therefore = siin+zer+ye

    Likewise,

    u= alif +pesh
    uu= alif +pesh +vaa'o
    buu= be +pesh+vaa'o

    We also have two dipthongs and two majhuul vowels which you know all about.
    It's good that you have a convention.

    Will you be kind enough to write out the following in that convention please, as close as you can get to the Iranian Persian pronunciation, perhaps use the Latin as a guide.
    ابرو امید ‏ایران ‏ آب مو ‏‏‏شو/abru omid Irân âb mu ŝo (last two are 'hair' and 'go/get')
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    That's good to know. I thought you had had enough of me and were in the process of writing.. :)

    خدایا، جانم به لبم رسیده است، مرا نجات ده
    Is there an emoji for that? :)

    It was left in the panel when I wrote post #4
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    It's good that you have a convention.

    Will you be kind enough to write out the following in that convention please, as close as you can get to the Iranian Persian pronunciation, perhaps use the Latin as a guide.
    ابرو امید ‏ایران ‏ آب مو ‏‏‏شو/abru omid Irân âb mu ŝo (last two are 'hair' and 'go/get')
    If the last one is the imperative of the verb verb "shudan", then here goes my reply. Please do not forget that, just like Persian and Arabic, the zabars, the zers and the peshs are not normally written.

    اَبرُو, اُمِید, اِیرَان, آب, مُو, شَو

    Any more tests? :)
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    If the last one is the imperative of the verb verb "shudan", then here goes my reply. Please do not forget that, just like Persian and Arabic, the zabars, the zers and the peshs are not normally written.

    اَبرُو, اُمِید, اِیرَان, آب, مُو, شَو

    Any more tests? :)
    Thank you for that, but I meant in the Latin convention (post 11), so I can get familiar with it. Also reading the version you have sent, they are not in modern Iranian Persian, so in your Latin convention but in modern Iranian Persian style, if possible please.

    In fact there is a post here for that so I am fine now thank you.
     
    Last edited:

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    This convention has been passed on from the Arabic script into Persian, Urdu and other Arabic based scripts with one main difference. In Arabic, no word begins with a vowel.
    (This last sentence brings a fresh bout of bafflement: how about آخر, امارات, اوتار, just off the top of my head?)

    In Iran the rules applied in writing in Arabic are deemed valid only for the Arabic language, which is taught extensively, I expect. It must be the case that those who study both languages develop two mindsets, one each for dealing with either dabeere.

    Persian textbooks for the first up to maybe second grade, in which diacritics are printed, certainly don’t abide by the Arabic convention سِی (sounding like ‘see’), deeming the spelling erroneous.

    The use of the kasre or zir under a consonant and just before a ی is in the Persian of Iran reserved for where it’s really needed, eg. in these words:

    شِیهه (shayhe, the neighing of a horse),
    پِیکر (, paykar, body),
    نِیسان (naysaan, archaic name of a month in spring),
    دِی (day, month of Day in winter).
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    (This last sentence brings a fresh bout of bafflement: how about آخر, امارات, اوتار, just off the top of my head?)

    In Iran the rules applied in writing in Arabic are deemed valid only for the Arabic language, which is taught extensively, I expect. It must be the case that those who study both languages develop two mindsets, one each for dealing with either dabeere.

    Persian textbooks for the first up to maybe second grade, in which diacritics are printed, certainly don’t abide by the Arabic convention سِی (sounding like ‘see’), deeming the spelling erroneous.

    The use of the kasre or zir under a consonant and just before a ی is in the Persian of Iran reserved for where it’s really needed, eg. in these words:

    شِیهه (shayhe, the neighing of a horse),
    پِیکر (, paykar, body),
    نِیسان (naysaan, archaic name of a month in spring),
    دِی (day, month of Day in winter).
    Please open another thread, quoting this post of yours and your bafflement will be removed
     
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