Persian: در

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Derakhshan

Senior Member
Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
Why does this word mean 'in, inside' in written Persian but 'out, outside' in spoken Persian?

For example, در آمدن according to Dehkhoda means داخل شدن, وارد شدن 'to come in'.

Obviously this derives from MP andar.

But in spoken Persian dar umad means 'he/she/it came out'.

Also, in some dialects در replaces بیرون.
i.e. dar e 'he/she/it is outside'.
 
  • PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    ^ As you say, ’dar’ seems to mean ‘out’ more than it does ‘in’, considering its use in terms like:
    دررفتن، دردادن، درکردن، درآوردن، درآمدن come out, take out, let out(2), go out/escape, also in دررو (from دررفتن) for through-road/escape route and:
    i.e. dar e 'he/she/it is outside'
    Although I have not seen this explanation before, and someone will correct me if am wrong, but etymologically speaking, that’s very possible. If we assume that ًدر/dar’ does mean ‘out’ then ‘اندر/andar’ must mean ‘in’ and we know it definitely does, so it can be the opposite of ‘dar’ because of ‘an’ (cognate with im, in, un in Latin based words such as: impossible/incalculable/unsuitable).

    And ‘dar’ as in door, also makes sense as it facilitates going out by simply opening it, but coming in has to be by a key or someone inside.

    Having said that, I’m not sure if this theory can fit with the fact that the Persian ‘dar’ is cognate with the English ‘door’, that’s if the two Persian در’s are related.

    Why does this word mean 'in, inside' in written Persian but 'out, outside' in spoken Persian?

    For example, در آمدن according to Dehkhoda means داخل شدن, وارد شدن 'to come in'.
    This could be the shortened/contracted form of اندرآمدن, although some of the examples for درآمدن, in Dehkhoda, mean ‘appear/ed’ therefore come out rather than come in.
     
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    fishcurl

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Why does this word mean 'in, inside' in written Persian but 'out, outside' in spoken Persian?

    For example, در آمدن according to Dehkhoda means داخل شدن, وارد شدن 'to come in'.
    It is possible the word dar possesses two completely different and distinct roots, and that each of these roots has over time led to the construction of a particular verb, such that we now have two identical-looking verbs with two meanings that happen to be opposite to each other.

    Another possibility is that the older usage, 'to walk into a place', is not so different as it seems to using the verb to mean 'to come out of a place', as the two senses become one if the 'angle of vision', the place from which the enunciation is made, is changed. If this is true, then perhaps the important point is that there is always some sort of a threshold or portal through which the action of stepping in or out takes place.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    It is possible the word dar possesses two completely different and distinct roots, and that each of these roots has over time led to the construction of a particular verb, such that we now have two identical-looking verbs with two meanings that happen to be opposite to each other.
    You have a good point for terms like دربرگرفتن, در آنجا where dar means 'in' but in terms like در کوچه بودم it is a bit vague. I think andar has gradually been replaced with the shorter former dar, as a natural process, also another factor for changing it may be the connotations of /a/ and /n/ in NP, there's hardly any NP words of that type, for example in MP we have an-ummid (نا امید, without hope), anoŝmâr(بی شمار incalculable), anērân(non Iranian) etc.

    در آمدن is one example and not a completely convincing one, where it can be interpreted as داخل شدن, وارد شدن 'to enter/come in', compared with دررفتن، دردادن، درکردن، درآوردن، درآمدن where dar clearly means out.
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    I agree that NP dar continues two different Iranian words: the preposition/adverb antara > andar > dar “in”, and the noun dwar > dar “gate, door, courtyard”. The colloquial dar raftan seems (at least etymologically) to mean: “to go out through the gate” or “to go out into the courtyard”.

    The negative particle an- occurs only before vowels; before consonants it is a-. Thus, I do not think that anyone is likely to have interpreted andar as “not in”.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Platts lists the two opposite meanings as such:
    P در dar [for an-dar; Pehl. dar; Zend añtare; S. antar], prep.& prefix, In, into, within, among; on, upon; per; at, near, close by; under; of, concerning, about ...
    P در dar [Zend dvara; S. dvāra], s.m. Door, gate;—adj. & adv. (in comp.) Outer; out:
    dar ānā, v.n. To come out, to issue...
    dar-dālān, s.m. Outer hall, ante-chamber...
    (در آنا = در آمدن)
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    The negative particle an- occurs only before vowels; before consonants it is a-. Thus, I do not think that anyone is likely to have interpreted andar as “not in”
    Quite right.

    The colloquial dar raftan seems (at least etymologically) to mean: “to go out through the gate” or “to go out into the courtyard”.
    Can this also explain دردادن، درکردن، درآوردن، درآمدن? It can, though there is a crucial 'az' missing in all, at least from NP point of view.

    Can this also explain دردادن، درکردن، درآوردن، درآمدن?
    McKenzie lists andar āwurdan: produce - andar āmadan: come in, enter - andar budan: be contained in - andar ŝudan: enter, set (sun) AND andar widardan: outstrip. In the latter, is there a NP version for widardan please?
     
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    Xyz123456

    Senior Member
    English - United Kingdom
    This is one of those examples where I don't think you're going to find an etymological simplification that explains the transition/separation of the word's usage over time. A good example in English is the word Turn; there are dozens of completely different usages of the word and also several constructs which mean utterly different things: "turn out" as a verbal construct can mean to empty something, to dress well, to conclude in a certain manner, etc etc etc. And yet the lignsuitic root of 'turn' in each instance is the exact same.

    In terms of actually learning modern Persian the only way to come up with a trick for memorising usage differences is to devise your own. Personally, I just think of "dooring" something when I use constructs such as dar raftan or dar avordan, etc. Some are more obvious than others- Dar Gozashtan ( to pass away/die ) is clearly stating passed through the door of life. Besides, it's worth noting that in far more cases than textbooks will state Iranians actually use "Tu" instead of "dar".
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    In Sorani Kurdish, handar means "outside".

    In Romani, andar means "out of".

    This leads me to believe the "out" meaning doesn't come from dar = "door", and andar in some varieties of Iranian somehow acquired the meaning of "out" rather than "in", and this continues to be reflected in modern dialects.

    The Romani word might have been picked up from an Iranian language at some point before the language reached Europe.
     
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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    In Sorani Kurdish, handar means "outside".

    In Romani, andar means "out of".

    This leads me to believe the "out" meaning doesn't come from dar = "door", and andar in some varieties of Iranian somehow acquired the meaning of "out" rather than "in", and this continues to be reflected in modern dialects.

    The Romani word might have been picked up from an Iranian language at some point before the language reached Europe.

    And in the Old Shirazi language of Saadi, dar meant outside:



    Considering this and the evidence from Kurdish and Romani, I theorize that the meaning of andar was reversed in some Middle Iranian dialects.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Dar Gozashtan ( to pass away/die ) is clearly stating passed through the door of life.
    I don't agree, this is consistent with other verbs like دررفتن، دردادن، درکردن، درآوردن، درآمدن so در گذشتن/dar gozaŝtan, to pass then out. For 'dar' to mean 'door' a preposition is required, except maybe in poetry.
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I theorize that the meaning of andar was reversed in some Middle Iranian dialects.
    It is also possible that originally only andar meant 'in' where dar meant 'out' only, then andar was shortened to dar and hence the current inconsistency in the meaning.

    If you replace andar with dar in the MP verbs below:
    McKenzie lists andar āwurdan: produce - andar āmadan: come in, enter - andar budan: be contained in - andar ŝudan: enter, set (sun)
    you will get the opposite meaning: dar āwurdan: take out - dar āmadan: come out, exit - dar budan: be outside - dar ŝudan: exit, to be let out

    If you look at verbs like درافتادن/dar oftâdan or در گیری or درگیرکردن/شدن you can see that dar here should be andar for these to make sense: "to be tangled in" or "to engage in", so it makes sense that these should be accompanied with andar and not dar.
     
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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    My theory is that andar's direction got reversed in some vernacular dialects, hence Kurdish handar "outside".

    In some dialects, andar shortened to dar.

    This vulgar dar = "out, outside" then entered the written language, but the written language preserved the original meaning of andar = "in", thus leading to the situation you describe.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    To complicate things, here are the meanings of various forms of andar(ūn) in Sorani:

    handar "outside"
    darūn "inside"
    dar "out"
    da "in, into"

    All presumably from the same root word, but with opposite meanings. It's a riddle.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Let's consider both dar "door/gate" and 'dar' the preposition, to mean 'out', door/gate is an interface with outside and itself part of the 'out', anything on the inside is andar. A cave doesn't have a door, its entrance is the start of the 'out' (dar) and whatever you put there to block it, e.g. a boulder, branches etc, will take on the same name, i.e. dar.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    I'm not convinced of the "door" interpretation, because Sorani handar and Romani andar clearly come from Middle Iranian andar "in". They don't have anything to do with the word for "door". Yet, they both mean "outside" not "inside". Do you see what I'm getting at?
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I'm not convinced of the "door" interpretation, because Sorani handar and Romani andar clearly come from Middle Iranian andar "in". They don't have anything to do with the word for "door". Yet, they both mean "outside" not "inside". Do you see what I'm getting at?
    Yes I do but those two examples don't provide enough to draw that conclusion plus I am also theorising.
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Actually, Indo-Iranian has two homophones with more or less opposite meanings: antara “inner” and antara “other”; cf Latin inter, internus and German anderer respectively.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    I didn't know that, fdb. In fact, the wiktionary page for Sanskrit अन्तर ántara actually lists two opposite meanings, "interior" and "exterior", noting that it's possibly due to a conflation of *h₁énteros "inner" and *h₂énteros "other, beyond". So at least we know this is not confined to Persian. The Romani word must come from the "exterior" meaning in Sanskrit, rather than from Iranian as I had thought.

    With this new info in mind, I think the "door" theory can be discarded.
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    With this new info in mind, I think the "door" theory can be discarded.
    I don't know the exact etymology of دروازه/darvâzé/darvâza which at least in modern Persian refers to a large door/gate, (city/town/castle gate) but وازه doesn't seem to mean 'large' in any way that I can think of, it does however seem to be the same as بازه with the usual b > v change. which itself is باز/open plus the a/é suffix and means 'opening'. But for 'opening' to make sense در/dar must mean 'out', so دروازه is 'opening to outside'.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    I don't know about the etymology of دروازه, but I suppose I was too hasty in dismissing the 'door' interpretation. Many languages apparently make this connection: Latin foris "door" and forīs "outside".
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Many languages apparently make this connection:
    Thanks, I found these:

    foreign (adj.)
    c. 1300, ferren, foran, foreyne, in reference to places, "outside the boundaries of a country;" of persons, "born in another country," from Old French forain "strange, foreign; outer, external, outdoor; remote, out-of-the-way" (12c.), from Medieval Latin foraneus "on the outside, exterior," from Latin foris (adv.) "outside," literally "out of doors," related to foris "a door," from PIE *dhwor-ans-, suffixed form of root *dhwer- "door, doorway."

    *dhwer-
    Proto-Indo-European root meaning "door, doorway." The base form is frequently in dual or plural, leading to speculation that houses of the original Indo-Europeans had doors with two swinging halves.

    It forms all or part of: afforest; deforest; door; faubourg; foreclose; foreign; forensic; forest; forfeit; forum; hors d'oeuvre; thyroid.

    It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Sanskrit duárah "door, gate;" Old Persian duvara- "door;" Lithuanian dùrys (plural); Greek thyra "door;" Latin foris "out-of-doors, outside;" Gaulish doro "mouth;" Old Prussian dwaris "gate;" Russian dver' "a door;" Old English dor, German Tür "door," Gothic dauro "gate."
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    ^ Looking at the common PIE root for door & out the below comment makes sense, doesn’t it?
    A cave doesn't have a door, its entrance is the start of the 'out' (dar) and whatever you put there to block it, e.g. a boulder, branches etc, will take on the same name, i.e. dar.
     
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