Persian: دویدن

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seitt

Senior Member
English/Welsh
Greetings


There is a lady at an Iranian church I attend who seems to come from the east of Iran, at least as far as I can tell – for example, she once pronounced the word دویدن as “dŏwidan”.


So my question is this: am I right in thinking that the standard pronunciation of the word is always “davidan”, and is “dŏwidan” definitely an Eastern Persian / Dari variant? The reason I hesitate is that I think that the imperative بدو is pronounced “bŏdŏ” even in Standard Persian, and this is more like “dŏwidan”.


Every blessing,


Simon
 
  • colognial

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Hi, Simon. Yes, 'daveedan' is standard formal pronunciation. On the other hand, 'doweedan' is the pronunciation used in colloquial speech; it's not peculiar to those who come from eastern Iran.
     

    seitt

    Senior Member
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks - re this “dŏwidan”, are the first two vowels perhaps pronounced the same as the two vowels in the name معین? I.e. ŏ(w)i, the W being rather faint?
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Thackston's An Introduction to Persian gives the following pronunciations: davidan and dawidan. If the latter is in Thackston's textbook, maybe it isn't so substandard after all.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    There are many Persian verbs that have two, sometimes three, variants and from my own experience and observations, the supposedly 'colloquial' forms are is the original pronunciations.

    I have looked at these verbs for years and my conclusion is, generally the imperative and the past stem provide clues for the correct i.e. original pronunciation, you can't use the present stem as a guide, since many key Persian verbs ends in a short vowels and there has never been a representation for short vowels in any of the Persian/Iranic scripts.

    The reason I hesitate is that I think that the imperative بدو is pronounced “bŏdŏ” even in Standard Persian, and this is more like “dŏwidan”.
    So I would say 'dŏwidan' is the correct form rather than 'davidan', despite what the text books say, one day they will correct all this.

    I have never worked out how you can work out the formal & colloquial/regional register in Persian, or any other language for that matter, the divergence of colloquial to formal (i.e. correct to apparently correct) must have started when writing was invented.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I would say the Afghans in their Dari pronounce the verb as "dawiidan" where "w" is the original sound for و and pronounced as the Arabic و and English w. The "aw" combination results in a dipthong and the Dari speakers pronounce it very markedly, unlike the dipthongs in modern Iranian Persian which have lost all their past shape.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I have looked at these verbs for years and my conclusion is, generally the imperative and the past stem provide clues for the correct i.e. original pronunciation, you can't use the present stem as a guide...
    In Dari as well some regional accents in Iran, the imperative "go!" is 'berav' so be-rav and 'rav', the present stem has given us the past stem: ravd>raft, whereas in accents from central Iran "go!" is pronounced 'bo-ro' which is not the original form.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A Ghazal of Hafiz's with the matla3 ...

    guftaa biruuN shudii ba-tamaashaa-i-maah-i-nau
    az maah-i-abruaan-i-man-at sharm nest, rau

    with the qaafiya words as...

    rau, ma-shau, jau, dirau, gau and shinau. (go, don't become, barley, harvest, brave/hero, listen). He could also have added xusrau and many more.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    az maah-i-abruaan-i-man-at sharm nest, rau
    Of course 'rau' is used in poetry, Hafez would have had no hesitation in using 'rav' if it suited him, I am sure you are the best person to find an of example of that, the point was which is the original form. 'We' seem to always get stuck on this point and need to be reminded that in poetry almost anything goes, PERSO-ARABIC script has given carte blanche to POETs to create these variations, I can assure you an Afghan poet would be tempted to use 'rau' in her/his poetry if that was more suited, while in day-to-day life s/he would only use 'rav' (again you are the best person to find an of example of that)
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Of course 'rau' is used in poetry, Hafez would have had no hesitation in using 'rav' if it suited him, I am sure you are the best person to find an of example of that, the point was which is the original form. 'We' seem to always get stuck on this point and need to be reminded that in poetry almost anything goes, PERSO-ARABIC script has given carte blanche to POETs to create these variations, I can assure you an Afghan poet would be tempted to use 'rau' in her/his poetry if that was more suited, while in day-to-day life s/he would only use 'rav' (again you are the best person to find an of example of that)
    When the verbal root ends in the letter و preceded by a zabar, the و is always realised as a vowel (as in rau/go) and not as a consonant. The و becomes a consonant only when it is followed by a vowel and another consonat.

    رَو rau/go!

    رَوَد she/he/it goes

    An example of a noun with -au ending is the well known name..

    خُسرَو xusrau
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    When the verbal root ends in the letter و preceded by a zabar, the و is always realised as a vowel (as in rau/go) and not as a vonsonant. The و becomes a consonant only when it is followed by a vowel and another consonat.

    رَو rau/go!

    رَوَد she/he/it goes

    An example of a noun with -au ending is the well known name..

    خُسرَو xusrau
    Coukd you please elaborate and provide more examples of this theory, Persian has many other verbs of this type so that should be easy.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    could you please elaborate and provide more examples of this theory, Persian has many other verbs of this type so that should be easy.
    There is no theory behind it. It's just a fact. I should add a bit more to this. The و becomes a consonant not just when it is followed by a vowel (zabar) and a consonant as in رود، روم (ravad, ravam) but also when it is followed by a short vowel and a letter of prolongation, e.g. روا، روی ، روون* (ravaa, ravii, xusravii, ravuun*)

    * Colloquial pronunciation of روان
     
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