Persian: رحمتِ ايشان كن

Ali Smith

Senior Member
Urdu - Pakistan
سلام

Someone who is not a native speaker was talking about a father and son and then said الله رحمتِ ايشان كن و جنت ببخشيد

I think he meant "O Allah, have mercy on them and grant (them) heaven."

Shouldn't it have been الله رحمتشان کن وجنت ببخش?
Pronunciation: Allah, rahmateshaan kon va jannat bebakhsh.

متشکرم
 
  • mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Hi, Ali Smith. You are correct about جنت ببخش. Also about the interpretation. Among Iranians it is considered proper to use the plural person form for a single subject. However, god is usually treated as a singular entity. Also, the second verb must be consistent with the first one, and the first verb is decidedly singular here.
    About the first part: both sentences are correct.
    خدایا، رحمتِ ایشان کن
    خدایا، رحمتِ‌شان کن
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Thank you. But I thought that you couldn't say things like the following in Persian:

    بيدارِ من كنيد
    بيدارِ ما كنيد
    بيدارِ او كنيد
    بيدارِ ايشان كنيد

    Instead, you had to say

    بيدارم كنيد (Wake me up.)
    بيدارمان كنيد (Wake us up.)
    بيدارش كنيد (Wake him up.)
    بيدارشان كنيد (Wake them up.)
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    You are perfectly correct, but then بیدارکردن is a different verb. I am sorry that I cannot think of a reason.

    The following are all acceptable.
    نگاهِ من کن، به جایِ «نگاه‌ام کن»، «به من نگاه کن»، یا «مرا نگاه کن»
    Look at me!

    پول‌اش را خرجِ آن‌ها می‌کرد، به جایِ «پول‌اش را برایِ آن‌ها خرج می‌کرد» یا «پول‌اش را خرج‌ِِشان می‌کرد»
    He would spend his money on them.

    دعایِ یارانِ رفته کنیم، به جایِ «برایِ یارانِ رفته دعا کنیم»
    Let us pray for the departed comrades.

    In balance, you are right and I am not. When someone passes away, the little ‘send-off’ prayer is usually خدا رحمت‌اش کند, not, every single time, خدا رحمتِ او کند. All I am saying is the latter happens often enough and is therefore acceptable.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Thank you!

    Also, it is possible that the speaker meant "May Allah have mercy on them and grant (them) heaven." rather than "O Allah, have mercy on them and grant (them) heaven."

    In that case, he should have said:

    الله رحمتشان كُنَد وجنت ببخشَد
    or
    الله رحمتشان كُناد وجنت ببخشاد

    Right?
     

    taraa

    Senior Member
    Persian
    بسته به متنی که مینویسید و سلیفه تان میتوانید از کلمات دیگری هم استفاده کنید مثلاً
    Compassion, Clemency, forgiveness, kindness, ...​
    ممنونم، یه دنیا :thank you: :thank you: :thank you:
    "mercy" فقط به معنای "رحمت" هستش؟
     

    utopia62000

    Senior Member
    Persian
    ممنونم، یه دنیا :thank you: :thank you: :thank you:
    "mercy" فقط به معنای "رحمت" هستش؟
    معانی دیگری هم دارد مثل بخشش، شفقت، مروت و امثال آن. بنظرم نباید انتظار داشت هر کلمه ای در یک زبان 100% منطبق بر کلمه ای در زبان دیگر باشد. بعضی کلمات که بسیط هستند معادل کامل دارند مثلاً آب (به معنی آبی که مینوشیم یا با آن میشوییم نه آب میوه)، ولی بسیاری از کلمات را باید معادل سازی کرد تا نزدیک ترین مفهوم را برسانند.​
     

    taraa

    Senior Member
    Persian
    معانی دیگری هم دارد مثل بخشش، شفقت، مروت و امثال آن. بنظرم نباید انتظار داشت هر کلمه ای در یک زبان 100% منطبق بر کلمه ای در زبان دیگر باشد. بعضی کلمات که بسیط هستند معادل کامل دارند مثلاً آب (به معنی آبی که مینوشیم یا با آن میشوییم نه آب میوه)، ولی بسیاری از کلمات را باید معادل سازی کرد تا نزدیک ترین مفهوم را برسانند.​
    موافقم
    یه دنیا ممنون :thank you: :thank you:
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    You are perfectly correct, but then بیدارکردن is a different verb. I am sorry that I cannot think of a reason.
    mannoushka, regarding...

    بيدارِ من كنيد
    بيدارِ ما كنيد
    بيدارِ او كنيد
    بيدارِ ايشان كنيد

    The above are wrong because they start with a possessive (izaafat) instead of incorporating a maf3uul/object as in the examples below, which are correct.

    بيدارم كنيد (Wake me up.)
    بيدارمان كنيد (Wake us up.)
    بيدارش كنيد (Wake him up.)
    بيدارشان كنيد (Wake them up.)

    In بيدارم كنيد, the -am is not the possessive -am but the object -am, i.e it is equivalent to مرا بیدار کنید etc

    I don't know how نگاہِ من کن could be correct for the meaning "Look at me".
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    No, you are right, Qureshpor; it is never a possessive addition, merely an idiosyncratic one, I guess. Could it have anything to do with the meaning of the compound verb and with the preposition? It seems to me the action represented by the verb has to involve some sort of ‘bestowing upon’ or this strange syntax will not work. Or maybe the whole thing is just an error that has been made frequently enough for it to have begun to sound right.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    No, you are right, Qureshpor; it is never a possessive addition, merely an idiosyncratic one, I guess. Could it have anything to do with the meaning of the compound verb and with the preposition? It seems to me the action represented by the verb has to involve some sort of ‘bestowing upon’ or this strange syntax will not work. Or maybe the whole thing is just an error that has been made frequently enough for it to have begun to sound right.
    If Persian speakers deem نگاہِ من کن to be correct, then there is no further argument. But, to me it just does not seem right, along with رحمتِ ايشان کن. Somehow I feel we should have خدایا رحمت بر ایشان کن. But, who am I to say this? I could be totally wrong.
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Qureshpor, many native speakers including me must feel the way you do, because we just do not talk like that. But نگاهِ من کن does actually exist.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    But نگاهِ من کن does actually exist.
    Do you mean it is used in speech? If it is supposed to mean “look at me, doesn’t it at least need بمن?

    Can we equally say دوست من بدار for
    دوستم بدار/ مرا دوست بدار?
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Do you mean it is used in speech?
    I doubt I personally have seen such syntax committed to paper. Speech is where most aberrations occur. And it may just be an innocent deviation from the standard that is rooted in some dialect.
     
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    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Can we equally say دوست من بدار for
    دوستم بدار/ مرا دوست بدار?
    It depends. I am only guessing, but I feel that if a native speaker came across دوستِ من بدار they would likely straightaway pick up the meaning. On the downside, the key preposition (به/بر) would be missing. So the sentence might be discarded as gibberish, the love plea declined. Too risky.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    It depends. I am only guessing, but I feel that if a native speaker came across دوستِ من بدار they would likely straightaway pick up the meaning. On the downside, the key preposition (به/بر) would be missing. So the sentence might be discarded as gibberish, the love plea declined. Too risky.
    This wasn’t a real question, I used it to question the validity of نگاه من کن.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    الله رحمتِ ايشان كن و جنت ببخشيد
    If anything there shouldn’t be a kasré after رحمت at all, as you have it there.

    What they said must have been رحمت‌شان کن (you already mentioned), which explains you hearing a kasré, I suspect the kasré was most probably pronounced very close to “i” which might explain hearing ایشان as you initially thought.
     
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