Persian: مران روز را روز نو خواندند

  • Mnemon

    Senior Member
    Pārsi - Persian
    I think the word "مران" here could be composed of the two components: "مر" + "آن"
    I suppose you know the meaning of "آن". It would make perfect senses, in terms of meaning, if you'd say, "آن روز را روز نو خواندند ". Then a question arises and the question is that what the function of "مر" here is?

    مر
    /mar/
    معنی
    نشانه‌ای زاید که برای زینت کلام به کار می‌رفته است: ◻︎ مر او را رسد کبریا و منی / که ملکش قدیم است و ذاتش غنی (سعدی۱: ۳۴).​
    فرهنگ پارسی عمید
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    In early New Persian the circumposition mar…rā indicates the direct or indirect object. Later mar…rā, or just mar on its own, is used by the poets as an archaism, often without any meaning. You can read all about it in Lazard.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Here are two lines from Shahname:
    به جمشید بر گوهر افشاندند
    مران روز را روز نو خواندند

    Could some kind soul, please, explain what مران would mean in this verse? I came across these lines in Persian wikipedia on Jamshid:
    جمشید - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد
    Please refer to the threads below in which fdb has kindly privided a detailed insight into the particle "mar". I for one do not accept the notion that it is for "ziinat-i-kalaam". One often finds this explanation when either the true use of a word is no longer known or has become forgotten.

    Persian: مر

    Classical Persian: The significance of the particle "mar"
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Thank you all very much for your competent and excellent replies. I should have searched the forum more carefully. I had stupidly only looked for مران . Anyways, it's as clear as daylight now.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Ferdôsi has used مران and مراو in many of his poems and depending on the context, it seems to mean که او/ آن (that she/it) and پس او/ آن (then he/it) also و او/ آن (and she/it), in these cases, removing it affects the meaning a bit, but in other cases the مر/mar part of مران and مراو, only helps the rhyme and meter with no discernible meaning.

    Ferdôsi also uses also مر/mar on its own; in many places as a rhyming filler for فر/far, in others as a filler only.

    Does any one know if مر was was before Ferdôsi's time and by whom?
     
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    Mnemon

    Senior Member
    Pārsi - Persian
    I for one do not accept the notion that it is for "ziinat-i-kalaam". One often finds this explanation when either the true use of a word is no longer known or has become forgotten.
    You are just overthinking this, Mr.Qureshpor.
    مر. [ م َ ] ( ) حرفی است که به نظر فرهنگ نویسان برای زینت و تحسین کلام یا برای اقامه ٔ وزن در شعر یا برای افاده ٔ حصر و تحدید یا برای تأیید در جمله ذکرمی شود و به عقیده ٔ گروه دیگر از لغت نویسان از جمله کلمات زایده است و حذفش هیچ لطمه ای به جمله نمی زند.​
    Does any one know if مر was was before Ferdôsi's time and by whom?
    It was used before him, by Rudaki & Abu-Shakur Balkhi:
    پسند باشد مر خواجه را پس از ده سال
    که بازگردد پیر و پیاده ودرویش
    رودکی
    بیاموز تا بد نیایدت روز
    چو پروانه مر خویشتن را مسوز
    بوشکور
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    You are just overthinking this, Mr.Qureshpor.
    I also believe مر/mar must have had a meaning, otherwise we are saying some poet randomly chose this word for his/her convenience and others copied it, also if that were the case (مر/mar had no meaning) then one would expect other poets to have invented their own.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic, Persian
    Steingass:
    before the nominative it emphasises, as: mar ān, That very person or thing
    So,

    به جمشید بر گوهر افشاندند
    مران روز را روز نو خواندند
    They showered Jamshid with jewels
    and that very day, they called "New Day".

    Basically, here, it has a similar meaning to همان.

    Does any one know if مر was was before Ferdôsi's time and by whom?
    It comes from the word's sense of "number, account" but had not yet been grammaticalized into a preposition in Middle Persian.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I never checked Dehkhoda which says:
    مر. [ م َ ] (اِ)شمار. تعداد. اندازه . حد. شماره . حساب :
    پس اندرنهادند ایرانیان
    بدان لشکر بی مر چینیان

    More examples of this sense are given there.

    As well as its 'decorative' function.
     
    مران روز را روز نو خواندند
    مر before object with sign of را is part of classic grammar. Generally (as @Derakhshan said) is for emphasis. Normally in classic literature you can find it a lot in many poems and pros.
    جهان مر جفا را تو مر صابری را. ناصرخسرو.
    بی هنران مر هنرمندان را نتوانند دید همچنانکه سگان بازاری مر سگ صید را

    So the meaning is: دقیقا" آن روز را ( که فردوسی تاکید خاصی هم روی آن دارد ) همان روز خجسته و فرخنده را، روز نو یا نو روز خواندند
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    You are just overthinking this, Mr.Qureshpor.
    Well I would suggest that as the "farhaNg-naviisaan" did not know the true meaning of the word "mar" (and other such words, for example the verbal prefix "bi"), they came up with the fancy terms of "taHsiin/ziinat-i-kalaam" and "zaa'id". It is a good ploy to offer this explanation when they have n't got any credible and logical explanation.
     

    Mnemon

    Senior Member
    Pārsi - Persian
    Well I would suggest that as the "farhaNg-naviisaan" did not know the true meaning of the word "mar" (and other such words, for example the verbal prefix "bi"), they came up with the fancy terms of "taHsiin/ziinat-i-kalaam" and "zaa'id"
    I'm afraid, I don't think so. On the contrary, I believe that those <"farhaNg-naviisaan"> elucidated the matter very well. I am not sure, perhaps you have not read my post <#7>.
    Mnemon said:
    مر. [ م َ ] ( ) حرفی است که به نظر فرهنگ نویسان برای زینت و تحسین کلام یا برای اقامه ٔ وزن در شعر یا برای افاده ٔ حصر و تحدید یا برای تأیید در جمله ذکرمی شود و به عقیده ٔ گروه دیگر از لغت نویسان از جمله کلمات زایده است و حذفش هیچ لطمه ای به جمله نمی زند.
    The aforementioned quote was taken from Dehkhoda Dictionary. Let me break it down to the cardinal items. It asserts:
    "mar" could be utilized:
    1. for ornamentation and it could serve as a beautifier.
    2. for adjusting the meter of a poem.
    3. by being beneficial to the poem via imposing limits.
    4. for confirmation and reinforcement.
    It also affirms that some lexicographers believe that its removal would breed no problem at all.
    It is a good ploy to offer this explanation when they haven't got any credible and logical explanation.
    To me, as a native speaker of Persian language, it is both logical and credible. Yet you are free to disagree, I can only inform.
     
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    It was apparently used in some 15th century
    تو گفتی سیه بنده‌ای کرده جرم
    دهد خواجه اکنون مر او را جزا
    ملک الشعرا
    in contemporary literature!!!
    Today also can be seen here or there in literature. Rarely but can be found

    did not know the true meaning of the word "mar"
    I think, if Nafisi can find a meaning for را so he will find a meaning for مر, these are preposition and sign of object.

    لغت نویسان از جمله کلمات زایده است و حذفش هیچ لطمه ای به جمله نمی زند
    there is simple answer for above view: How many poems wrote by Sadi or Ferdosi as masters of Language without مر?Do you believe, they could not make some more without using this preposition !!!! Why they have used it with object?
    No it was part of grammar and part of expression as well.

    Does any one know if مر was was before Ferdôsi's time and by whom?
    I am sure you know that, words specially prepositions are not something all of the sudden come to a language. مر is one of them. For a long period of time, considered as part of correct usage of grammar. for example in حنظله باد غیسی one of forerunner in Persian literature says:
    یارم سپند اگــر چه در آتـش همی فکند
    از بهـــر چشـــم تا نـرسد مرو را گزند
    او را ســپند و آتــش نـاید هــمی به کار
    با روی همچو آتش و باخال چون سپند
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    This has led me to question the form of مرا, I know مرا is short for من را but why has ن been dropped? It seems unusual especially when compared with آن را which hasn’t been shortened to آرا.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    یارم سپند اگــر چه در آتـش همی فکند
    از بهـــر چشـــم تا نـرسد مرو را گزند
    او را ســپند و آتــش نـاید هــمی به کار
    با روی همچو آتش و باخال چون سپند
    To me replacing مرو with او doesn't change the reading of first two lines at all, does anyone agree?
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    We are talking about 1000 years ago style of writing and speaking.
    I’m afraid that’s a cop out. We have 2500 year old cuneiforms that can be deciphered, we have thousands of unambiguous words from a 1000 years ago except maybe for this one.

    Anyway I had never seen those 4 four lines of poetry you posted yet I had no problem understanding every word & its message, except for the exact meaning of مر (but که fits well)
     
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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic, Persian
    az ... mar in MP meant "on account of":

    èē hamāg nēst-tisīh *pid-kēnīh ud adōšagīg be ō mardōmān az ān mar mad ka-šān az jud šahr ud az jud rōstāg ud az jud deh mard āmad hēnd u-šān zan kard ud ka-šānzan be burd pid dud mād griyist hēnd pad ēn kū-mān duxt pad wardagīh hamē barēnd

    "For all poverty (nēst-tišīh, lit. not having anything), and hatred of parents (pid-kēnīh) and un-lovingness (adōšagīg) came to mankind on the account, when men came to them from an alien land and from an alien province and from an alien country, they married (zan kard), and when they take their wives away (zan bur), the fathers and mothers (i.e. of the women) wept (griyist), with these (words): ‘They are taking our daughter into captivity/slavery (wardagīh).’"

    In Early Judeo-Persian, this grammaticalized into a pre/circumposition az mar-i ... (rā) "for, because of", and as a way of marking the direct/indirect object (so equivalent to CP را):

    agar... az mar-aš bi-kuš-ī
    "if... you kill it"

    There are still dialects today which use a preposition meaning "for, to" as a way of marking the direct object, in a similar way to the quote above.

    Perhaps, in the ENP of Khorasan and Transoxania, mar ... rā through some evolution had grammaticalized from the MP az ... mar "on account of", similarly to EJP.
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    az ... mar in MP meant "on account of":

    èē hamāg nēst-tisīh *pid-kēnīh ud adōšagīg be ō mardōmān az ān mar mad ka-šān az jud šahr ud az jud rōstāg ud az jud deh mard āmad hēnd u-šān zan kard ud ka-šānzan be burd pid dud mād griyist hēnd pad ēn kū-mān duxt pad wardagīh hamē barēnd

    "For all poverty (nēst-tišīh, lit. not having anything), and hatred of parents (pid-kēnīh) and un-lovingness (adōšagīg) came to mankind on the account, when men came to them from an alien land and from an alien province and from an alien country, they married (zan kard), and when they take their wives away (zan bur), the fathers and mothers (i.e. of the women) wept (griyist), with these (words): ‘They are taking our daughter into captivity/slavery (wardagīh).’"

    In Early Judeo-Persian, this grammaticalized into a pre/circumposition az mar-i ... (rā) "for, because of", and as a way of marking the direct/indirect object (so equivalent to CP را):

    agar... az mar-aš bi-kuš-ī
    "if... you kill it"
    Thank you, this is what is needed, please let's have some more.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    In most examples mar....rā seems to stand for or is a variation of bar..rā/ بر..را or barā/برا so e.g. mar u rā/مر او را can be read as barā u/برا او, simply "for him", please see example (4) post #13 and in (6) mar dust rā/مر دوست را to bar dust rā/بر دوست را to modern Persian barāye dust/برای دوست "for friend", as can be seen the author has also used "for" in the English translation.

    You can see in example (5) the author switches to barāye to/برای تو rather than mar tu rā/مر تو را, as it would look & sound odd so:
    حق ‏تعالی مرا برای تو آفرید rather than حق ‏تعالی مرا مرتورا آفرید

    To me, in most other examples given under different headings (in the link from post #13), mar...ra essentially means the same i.e. ....برای/for....
     
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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic, Persian
    برای itself is from pad rāy ī "on account of". In MP pad rāy ī and az mar ī both seem to mean "because of, on account of".

    be abzāyēnd pad rāy ī Wahman ka-šān andar miyān šawēd
    "they increase on account of Wahman, when he exists among them"

    ud andar wizend ī az mar ī duš-xwarrah alaskandar ō ērān-šahr ud dēn ud xwadāyīh mad
    "and the harm that came upon Ērānšahr because of Alexander of evil fortune"
     
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