Persian: موسیقا

PersoLatin

Senior Member
UK
Persian - Iran
What does this word mean exactly, I suspect it means موسیقی/music but based on the following entry in Dehkhoda I am none the wiser.

It looks like it was devised specifically so the word for musical/موسیقایی can be made, so can موسیقا be used on its own, if so what would it mean?

موسیقا. (معرب ، اِ) موسیقار : نظمی است مر نظام پذیری راگرخوانده ای در اول موسیقا. ناصرخسرو.و رجوع به موسیقار شود

and here's:
موسیقار. (معرب ، اِ) ۞ یک نوع سازی که از نی های بزرگ و کوچک ترتیب داده اند
 
  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    From Hans Wehr (Arabic to English Dictionary)

    موسیقیٰ muusiiqaa (music)

    موسیقار muusiqaar (musician)

    موسیقی muusiiqiiy (musical/musician)

    In the case of Persian, to come an equivalent word for "musical", one has to add -ii to the noun. When one adds ئی or یی to موسیقی, the word ends up as موسیقا + یی.

    You wouldn't have موسیقا on its own as its correct spelling, according to Arabic, is موسیقی where the final yaa is called alif-i-maqsuurah (the shortened alif).

    cf. موسی , عیسی > موساوی، عیساوی
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Thank you Qureshpor, I understand and it has all become clear.

    I don’t kniw when موسیقایی entered Persian as I never came across it when I was in Iran many many moons ago & since, until recently.

    So Arabic borrowed it from, I presume, one of the Latin languages as musica and wrote it as موسیقی pronounced as موسیقا/musiqâ and Persian borrowed & misread it as musiqi (I don’t blame them for that) and passed it on to others in the wider area as musiqi.

    Of course you can not attach یی to موسیقی to make ًmusicalً so it was decided to correct the mistake & use the original موسیقا.

    I think people in charge must have toyed with the idea of using موسیقیایی too (as it is is around) basically modelling it on جغرافی/geography and جغرافیایی/geographic.

    As a matter of interest, what is ‘musical’ in Urdu, Turkish & Kurdish I wonder if forum members can help here.
     

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Turkish: müzikli
    müzik + adjective-forming suffix (-li)
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    So Arabic borrowed it from, I presume, one of the Latin languages as musica and wrote it as موسیقی pronounced as موسیقا/musiqâ and Persian borrowed & misread it as musiqi (I don’t blame them for that) and passed it on to others in the wider area as musiqi.
    Yes, I do believe the word origins are Greek. There are lots of Arabic words that end in alif-i-maqsuurah, dunyaa being one of them (دنیی) but because there are two adjacent ی, the spelling convention became دنیا.

    and Persian borrowed & misread it as musiqi (I don’t blame them for that) and passed it on to others in the wider area as musiqi.
    There was/is a way to not confuse one with the other in Persian. In Urdu spelling, we write (for example) Laila the proper name as لیلیٰ with a small alif over the ya. No one in our part of the world pronounces this as لیلی Lailii, but I believe in Iran it is pronounced (or also pronounced) in this manner. So, you could be right that muusiiqaa became pronounced as muusiiqii in Persian.

    As a matter of interest, what is ‘musical’ in Urdu, Turkish & Kurdish I wonder if forum members can help here.
    There is yet another twist in Urdu! The correct word is "muusiiqii" but it is often pronounced as "mausiiqii" for music. For musical, I think we would say "muusiiqaanah/mausiiqaanah" (موسیقانہ).

    By the way, I wonder if Arabic back-borrowed موسیقار from Farsi. In Urdu, like Arabic, this word means "musician".
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Turkish: müzikli
    müzik + adjective-forming suffix (-li)
    Thank you.

    Turkish was one of the languages that borrowed musiqi from Persian, but it looks like they have ditched it for the French/English version now.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Qureshpor said:
    From Hans Wehr (Arabic to English Dictionary)

    موسیقیٰ muusiiqaa (music)

    ...

    موسیقی muusiiqiiy (musical/musician)
    PersoLatin said:
    and Persian borrowed & misread it as musiqi
    Steingass (Arabic-English) lists both spellings and pronunciations (muusiiqaa and musiiqii) for music. Could it be that both pronunciations were used in Arabic with this meaning or is it just a potential mistake/influence from another language in the entry by Steingass...?
    موسیقا mûsîqâ, موسیقی mûsîqî, music.
    موسیقار mûsîqâr, a musical instrument; musician.
     
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    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Steingass (Arabic-English) lists both spellings and pronunciations (muusiiqaa and musiiqii) for music. Could it be that both pronunciations were used in Arabic with this meaning or is it just a potential mistake/influence from another language in the entry by Steingass...?
    I'm not familiar with how Steingass is structured, but could it be that they are giving the noun and the derived adjective? (If not, then there's no entry for "musical"!)
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The following is an entry from Hayyim.


    موسیقار (mooseeghar) Noun 1. A kind of musical instrument consisting of reeds or pipes. 2. A fabulous bird with a perforated bill emitting a musical sound; hence, a symbol of music.

    موسیقی (mooseeghee) Noun-Adjective A.G 1. Music [often علم موسیقی or فن موسیقی i.e. the science or art of music]. 2. Musical. Ex. آلات موسیقی musical instruments. [Fem = موسیقیه mooseeghiyyah].
    مدرسۀ موسیقی A school of music; a conservatory. [Note. موسیقی and موزیك are synonyms. The former emphasizes the science or art of music, while the latter means rather musical sounds or performances, and spe. cifically a band of music].

    موسیقی دان (—dan) Noun A.P A musician.

    Steingass has this.

    موسيقار mūsīqār, موسيقال mūsīqāl , Pipes made of unequal reeds; Pandean pipes; a bird whose bill is perforated with holes, through which it emits a musical sound.

    موسيقی mūsīqī (G. μουσική), Music.

    @Alfaaz the reference that you provided is from HansWehr

    (I believe آھنگ is the purely Persian word for music)
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Qureshpor said:
    @Alfaaz the reference that you provided is from HansWehr
    Please excuse any potential confusion. The reference in post # 9 is from Steingass Arabic-English Dictionary, not Hans Wehr or Steingass Persian-English Dictionary (which you quoted in posts #2 and #11, respectively). If you click on the link for Arabic Almanac, it can be found by scrolling down (after Lisan Al-Arab and before Hava).
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Please excuse any potential confusion. The reference in post # 9 is from Steingass Arabic-English Dictionary, not Hans Wehr or Steingass Persian-English Dictionary (which you quoted in posts #2 and #11, respectively). If you click on the link for Arabic Almanac, it can be found by scrolling down (after Lisan Al-Arab and before Hava).
    Apologies. I didn't realise that I needed to scroll down to look at all the Arabic and Persian dictionaries ever published! :)

    The Steingass copy thaat I have a link to does not appear to have موسیقا

    A Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary, Including the Arabic Words and Phrases to be Met with in Persian Literature.
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Qureshpor said:
    Apologies. I didn't realise that I needed to scroll down to look at all the Arabic and Persian dictionaries ever published!

    The Steingass copy thaat I have a link to does not appear to have موسیقا
    There still appears to be some confusion/misunderstanding Qureshpor SaaHib. Please click this link. Next, one can scroll down until "Steingass" page 1083 appears, on which you can find the entries I quoted in post #9:
    موسیقا mûsîqâ, موسیقی mûsîqî, music.
    موسیقار mûsîqâr, a musical instrument; musician.
    (As you would already know, Francis Joseph Steingass authored both Persian-English and Arabic-English dictionaries. You are looking at the Persian-English one, while I was asking about the Arabic-English one - یعنی "ہم دعاء لکھتے رہے، وہ دغا پڑھتے رہے" - in reference to your and PersoLatin's comments about a possible change in pronunciation.)
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Hello,
    Regarding Steingass’s Arabic dictionary, I’d like to point out that it looks like it’s following what we may call an Egyptian spelling custom of not adding dots to differentiate the yaa2 from the alif maqsuura, so both muusiiqaa and muusiiqii are written موسيقى and the difference is determined from the context.
    If you check the follwung page in the same link, you’ll see the word maalii written like this مالى.

    Edit: sorry, that was Hans Wehr. Steingass differentiates the two words by write one with an alif موسيقا and the other with a (dotless) yaa2 موسيقى .

    But the point here is that, this being a loanword, it is not strange that it has different spellings, either in Arabic or the languages that took from it.
     
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