Persian: میچانیدن/mičânidan

PersoLatin

Senior Member
UK
Persian - Iran
I came across میچانیدن, which I’d never heard before, while looking up another word in Dehkhoda which gives its meaning as: برشته کنانیدن و بریان کنانیدن where کنانیدن/konânidan itself is the causative of کردن, another one I’d not heard used before.

Does anyone know anything about میچانیدن as a verb, is its meaning limited to what I found? Seems strange to have a dedicated verb for an action which itself is very rare.
 
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  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I came across میچانیدن, which I’d never heard before, while looking up another word in Dehkhoda which gives its meaning as: برشته کنانیدن و بریان کنانیدن where کنانیدن/konânidan itself is the causative of کردن, another one I’d not heard used before.

    Does anyone know anything about میچانیدن as a verb, is its meaning limited to what I found? Seems strange to have a dedicated verb for an action which itself is very rarP
    PersoLatin jaan, I am not surprised at your surprise. I too have never come across this verb. Apparently there is میچودن which means "to fry".

    A Vocabulary, Persian, Arabic, and English

    The compiler of ناظم الاطباء, the source that has been quoted by Dehkhoda came from Kirman. I don't know if it is a verb found in that part of the country.

    Take a look at this blog which appears to be for victims of domestic violence.

    نامه پزشک قانونی دریافت کرده، چکار باید بکنیم؟ | بنیاد وکلا

    سلام برا بذر پاشی با برادرم رفتیم سر مزرعه دو نفر از اهلی روستای پاییین گوسفنداشونو داخل یونجه شر ما میچانیدن یونجه دو ماه پیش کاشته شده چندین بار تذکر لسانی دادیم ولی باز گوش ندادن تا این دفعه فوش داد منم فوش دادم در گیر شدیم دندان اسیاب او شکست گردن گردنش کبود شد فقط . سر من هم شکست بالای ابروم سمت راست دو بخی خورد. میره خونه با پدرس درگیر میشه .... حالا رفته پزشک قانونی ده درصد دیه اورده ..... ممنون میشم راهنمای بفرماین

    Have never come across کنانیدن either!

    Dictionary, English, Persian, and Arabic

    See page 9 of article below.

    http://cld.persiangig.com/dl/9CSU2N/u062Fu06A9u062Au0631 u0645u062Du0645u062F u0631u0636u0627 u0628u0627u0637u0646u06CC.pdf
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Thank you Qureshpor.
    سلام برا بذر پاشی با برادرم رفتیم سر مزرعه دو نفر از اهلی روستای پاییین گوسفنداشونو داخل یونجه شر ما میچانیدن یونجه دو ماه پیش کاشته شده چندین بار تذکر لسانی دادیم ولی باز گوش ندادن تا این دفعه فوش داد منم فوش دادم در گیر شدیم دندان اسیاب او شکست گردن گردنش کبود شد فقط . سر من هم شکست بالای ابروم سمت راست دو بخی خورد. میره خونه با پدرس درگیر میشه .... حالا رفته پزشک قانونی ده درصد دیه اورده ..... ممنون میشم راهنمای بفرماین
    I am sure that is می چرانیدند from چرانیدن the causative of چریدن "to graze", so "the two people from the lower village "had let their sheep graze" in his newly planted Alfalfa field". The text has quite a few spelling mistakes. This is a dispute over grazing rights between people from two different villages.

    Apparently there is میچودن which means "to fry".
    I looked for میچادن (the non causative version) rather than میچودن which seems to be colloquial, cf. پیچیدن (turn/twists/wrap) and پیچاندن (colloquial: پیچوندن)
     
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    Shih-Wei

    New Member
    Chinese - Taiwan
    I looked for میچادن (the non causative version) rather than میچودن which seems to be colloquial, cf. پیچیدن (turn/twists/wrap) and پیچاندن (colloquial: پیچوندن)
    I have no idea about the meaning of میچانیدن, but میچودن should be the non-causative version of it.

    The formation of causative is usually (present stem) + "ândan" or "ânidan".

    The past stem of میچودن is میچود. The present stem should be میچا because the mutation "u -> â" is a common rule when passing from past to present stem. For instance
    نمود -> نما
    گشود -> گشا
    افزود -> افزا

    See this table (which includes میچودن):
    https://www.dastur.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Non-Finite_Verb_Forms_in_Persian.pdf
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I have no idea about the meaning of میچانیدن, but میچودن should be the non-causative version of it.
    Thank you, this is such a rare verb I didn't think further about it & thanks for the reference which lists many other rare verbs.

    I looked for میچادن (the non causative version) rather than میچودن which seems to be colloquial, cf. پیچیدن (turn/twists/wrap) and پیچاندن (colloquial: پیچوندن)
    I was mistaken here as میچودن can not be colloquial (as you have said already) since 'the unwritten rule' for colloquializing applies to words/verbs that end in "-ân" so پیچاندن become پیچوندن.


    What doesn't make sense or is confusing is the difference between میچانیدن and میچودن, we now know the former is the causative form of the latter which means 'to fry/to brown' and so میچانیدن, by the rules in place, means 'to make/allow/force something to be fried/browned" which is no different to simply 'frying it', you can not "make someone fry something", ok, let's say you might, then would you need a verb for it, so I can see why the causative was ever required.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    What doesn't make sense or is confusing is the difference between میچانیدن and میچودن, we now know the former is the causative form of the latter which means 'to fry/to brown' and so میچانیدن, by the rules in place, means 'to make/allow/force something to be fried/browned" which is no different to simply 'frying it', you can not "make someone fry something", ok, let's say you might, then would you need a verb for it, so I can see why the causative was ever required.
    PersoLatin, causative verbs are part of many languages and as the languages develop, certain features become reduced and others disappear altogether. In Urdu, we have a three way causative system for some verbs, e.g

    likhnaa: to write لِکھنا

    likhaanaa: To cause to write; to teach to write; to get something written. لِکھانا

    likhvaanaa : To cause to be written or recorded لِکھوانا

    In Persian, use of causal verbs in the modern language is greatly depleted and no doubt other methods are employed to convey the meaning.

    Coming to the verb "میچودن", this is the base form.....

    I am frying eggs.... the telephone rings.... I ask my friend PersoLatin to take over while I answer the phone.

    PersoLatin starts to fry additional number of eggs.

    I got Persolatin to fry some eggs.

    This is where I would say you would use the verb میچانیدن.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    In Persian, use of causal verbs in the modern language is greatly depleted and no doubt other methods are employed to convey the meaning.
    I don't believe that has been happening in Persian but you may have some evidence for this, do you, as I am very interested?

    ikhnaa: to write لِکھنا

    likhaanaa: To cause to write; to teach to write; to get something written. لِکھانا

    likhvaanaa : To cause to be written or recorded لِکھوانا
    This is interesting although I admit I can not say that of the many causative verbs I know, any get used in that way, the bold example above is the only one I recognise as the usual use for a causative verb in Persian, the others are achieved in other ways and not in the neat way Urdu does it.

    Even the simple "I got him to xxx" where xxx is a simple verb, can not be achieved by using a causative in Persian and I don't have any evidence that this was the case in previous stages of the language.

    Also not all verbs can have a causative version, at least not in Persian, e.g. you don't use پزاندن to make someone cook or دماندن to make someone breath, and for that matter, fry, but you can make them laugh, jump, cry, run etc.
     
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