Persian: وایستا

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sehrehalal

Member
English - US
Salaam,

I am wondering if anyone can help with the grammatical analysis of the colloquial form of the command وایستا (stop), specifically where does the ا / alef come from.

I thought it might be related to forms like گفتم / گفتا in classical poetry or exclamations like وای مصیبتا but that doesn't seem to make much sense. Maybe it is related to cases where we say ها / ا as an extra emphasis in colloquial - ازش نپرسا ('don't ask him' - completely non-standard spelling of course)?

Looking for any linguists' perspectives or published papers rather than speculation if possible.... با تشکر
 
  • PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Looking for any linguists' perspectives or published papers rather than speculation if possible.... با تشکر
    I have asked questions before and expected the same as you but sometimes, or often, there is no linguists' perspectives or published papers, so some of my questions have remained unanswered and for وایستا which is colloquial, it could be even harder to find an scholarly answer. But let's stay positive.

    In the mean time let me give my explanation based on Persian verb formation, but before that let's look at other variations of وایستا/vâystâ (also very common without /t/, وایسا/vâysâ)

    imperative: وایستا/vâystâ meaning stop/stay/stand, examples: وایستا اونجا (vâystâ unjâ) - stop/stand/stay there!
    Past Tense: وایستا دم/vâystâdam 'I stopped'
    Past Participle: وایستا ده/vâystâdé - وایستا ده اونجا/vâystâdé unjâ - she is standing there/she is stood there
    Infinitive : وایستا دن/vâystâdan, to stop/stay/stand

    Based on the rules, infinitives are formed this way: past stem + ن/an, the past stem: present stem + d/id/ud/âd/t. Present stem is used as the basis for conjugation of present tense forms, plus the imperative.

    We need to bear in mind وایستا دن is colloquial and is not regular, now applying the rule to وایستا دن we get وایستاد as the past stem and وایستا as the present stem and here is your answer.


    I believe the original form of this verb was باز ایستادن, and applying the same rule will yield the present stem as بازایست or بایست without the final ا / alef.
     
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    sehrehalal

    Member
    English - US
    Thanks so much for this detailed reply! I understand that sometimes there just really aren't any published papers / reputable sources discussing particular issues. It seems there is so much work left to be done in Persian linguistics!
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    I initially thought it was from bâz as well, I'm not so sure anymore.

    Here is the present conjugation to complete the picture:

    vây-miste "S/he stands/will stand"
    subjunctive: vây-ste

    And in some dialects:

    "He is standing", "Stand!"

    Bushehri: veyside, veysak!

    Lari: vaysade, oveys!

    Sorani Kurdish: westâwe, biweste!

    Now if this comes from the preverb bâz-, I wonder what purpose it even serves, or why it is present in all spoken dialects while the bare verb istâdan isn't used at all, and why the present Persian form is vây-miste instead of vâ(z)-miste?

    Also, in all the dialects/languages I mentioned besides Tehrani, the present stem is veys(t)/vast, with a short vowel, I wonder if this makes a bâz origin unlikely, since in Lari we have many verbs beginning in -, like vâgard! = برگرد , this is clearly from bâz, but oveys doesn't fit the pattern.

    Maybe it is from some other preverb, or just another form/development of the bare verb istâdan (which got reanalyzed in Tehrani as a preverb).
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Now if this comes from the preverb bâz-, I wonder what purpose it even serves, or why it is present in all spoken dialects while the bare verb istâdan isn't used at all, and why the present Persian form is vây-miste instead of vâ(z)-miste?
    We have ‏بازایستا دن and ‏ایستادن and they are different, the difference is بازایستا دن is used for situations when one is moving/walking and means 'to stop', whereas ‏ایستادن is in a stationary state and means 'to stand up', of course these days بایست and وایستا mean the same thing, to me, to tell someone to stop, when they are running/walking/talking, should be "!بازایست", whereas بایست can only mean 'stand up' from a sitting/lying position.
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I wonder if this makes a bâz origin unlikely, since in Lari we have many verbs beginning in -, like vâgard! = برگرد , this is clearly from bâz, but oveys doesn't fit the pattern.
    Colloquially باز becomes both vâz and vâ, درو وا کن/daro kon "open the door", وانمودن/nemudan "to pretend/give appearance of"

    Now if this comes from the preverb bâz-, I wonder what purpose it even serves
    وایستا دن/vâystâdan is a compound verb as be-, na-, mi-, nemi- preverbs are attached to the main part and if it isn't bâz- what else can it be, considering semantically it also makes sense.

    Past tense:
    وا یستادم/vâystâdam
    وا ینستادم/vâynastâdam
    وا یمیستادم/vâymistâdam
    وا ینمیستادم/vâynemistâdam

    Subjunctive:
    وا یستم/vâystam
    وا ینستم/vâynastam
    وا یمیستم/vâymistam
    وا ینمیستم/vâynemistam

    In بازداشتن, bâz-باز changes 'to have/hold' to 'to detain/keep' so adds stress to the original meaning of the verb, and I believe bâz-باز acts in the same way in:‏ بازایستا دن/وایستا دن.
     
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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    I do think it probably is bāz, I just wonder about the -y- in vāystādan and why it's there.

    In Sorani the present stem for "stop/stand" is wast-, and in Persian vāyst-. This looks like it also incorporated bāz into the base verb for "stand", also losing the z. This makes me wonder, if this feature (the dual meaning "stop/stand" and the change bāz > ) is present in both colloquial Persian and Kurdish, how far back does it go.

    Here's how - changes verb meanings in some Lari verbs, we make very extensive use of it as a preverb:

    hešta "to allow/let"
    vāhešta "to keep"

    šonda "to set/make sit"
    vāšonda "to plant something (e.g. a tree) into the ground"

    xarda "to eat"
    vāxarda "to drink"

    košta "to kill"
    vākošta "to put out (e.g. a fire)" = خاموش کردن
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I do think it probably is bāz, I just wonder about the -y- in vāystādan and why it's there.

    In Sorani the present stem for "stop/stand" is wast-, and in Persian vāyst-. This looks like it also incorporated bāz into the base verb for "stand", also losing the z. This makes me wonder, if this feature (the dual meaning "stop/stand" and the change bāz > ) is present in both colloquial Persian and Kurdish, how far back does it go.
    In colloquial Tehrani there are also versions without -y- :

    vâystâ/vâstâ/vâysâ/vâssâ
    وا یستا/وا ستا/وا یسا/وا سا

    vâystâd/vâstâd/vâysâd/vâssâd
    وا یستاد/وا ستاد/وا یساد/وا ساد
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I initially thought it was from bâz as well, I'm not so sure anymore.
    I am beginning to think preverb وا is not always the colloquial of preverb باز, and that there may have been a وا (or با??) which mistakenly has been taken for colloquial of باز.

    In the following examples the preverb وا and باز alter the meaning of the main verb داشتن, differently:

    1) وادار کردن (derived from واداشتن) means: to make/force s/o to do s/t

    2) بازداشت کردن (derived from بازداشتن) means: to detain, withhold, prevent, پیش گیری کردن, مانع شدن, منع کردن

    To me واداشتن and بازداشتن don't mean the same thing therefore وا ≠ باز. Also, in formal Persian writing & speech, no one bothers to correct وا to باز in these examples. Obviously 1) uses the present stem and 2) uses the past stem of داشتن.


    Another possible candidates for this theory: گذاردن "to put/lay, گذاشتن " AND واگذاردن to hand over (s/t, responsibility)
     
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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    According to Steingass, واداشتن means "to restrain, check, inhibit". So maybe the current meaning is a relatively recent development?

    There are lots of examples where وا and باز have the same meaning, f.e. in بازرسی and وارسی. A few exceptions doesn't disprove that وا is the same as باز.
     

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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Bahrain), Persian
    I found that Steingass has an entry for وا ایستادن vā-istādan.

    This made me realize something: that وایستادن is simply a contraction of وا ایستادن‌.

    That's the reason for the -y- in vāystādan, which creeps into the present tense as vāy-miste.

    In other words, vā-istādan has been reanalysed as vāy-stādan, with a preverb vāy instead of vā.

    The remaining question for me is, why does the imperative وایستا have an ا at the end of it? The present stem doesn't have it, nor the formal Persian بایست/ایست.
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Dehkhoda lists both.

    Some of your own examples may fall in that category:

    hešta "to allow/let"
    vāhešta "to keep"

    šonda "to set/make sit"
    vāšonda "to plant something (e.g. a tree) into the ground"

    xarda "to eat"
    vāxarda "to drink"

    košta "to kill"
    vākošta "to put out (e.g. a fire)" = خاموش کردن
     
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