Persian: پرده

calame

Senior Member
French
Hello,

I am trying to translate a verse from the divan of Sa'eb Tabrizi :
(ديوان صائب - غزليات - قسمت نهم - شماره ١٤٤: در هيچ پرده نيست، نباشد نواي تو)
در هیچ پرده نیست نباشد نواي تو
عالم پر است از تو و خالیست جاي تو

I found these two translation in 19th c. books :
Thy music is or should be in every key ;
The world is full of thee, but thy place is empty.

There is not & song without your name
The world is full of you, whilst your proper place is empty

But I really don't understand why the translator is mentioning "music" or "song" for the first verse. Because of the word "pardeh ?"
Are these translations correct ?

Thank you for your help !
 
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  • ayiran

    Senior Member
    Persian-Iran
    I think پرده here means NOTE or NOTE is more suitable
    Music is so general
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    در هیچ پرده نیست نباشد نواي تو
    عالم پر است از تو و خالیست جاي تو
    Apart from its obvious meaning, پرده also means, musical arrangement or fret (fret board on string instruments).

    I don't agree with neither of the translations given for verse one.

    The first verse says:
    There isn't any/There is no musical arrangement without your music/tune

    نیست نباشد (two negatives so باشد) should be read as 'is' or 'exists' then:
    Your tune/music exists in every musical arrangement

    نیست نباشد can also be interpreted as ناپیدا نباشد/پیدا باشد


    This is correct for the second verse:
    The world is full of thee, but thy place is empty.
     
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    calame

    Senior Member
    French
    Thank you very much for your explanations !
    I didn't know that pardeh could have this meaning.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Apart from its obvious meaning, پرده also means, musical arrangement or fret (fret board on string instruments).
    The definition of پرده in music is: ‘steps between notes’, or the number of steps it takes to go from one natural note to another. in Persian music there’s also نیم پرده which can potentially double the number of steps between notes.

    Music experts can hopefully help here.


    The first verse says:
    There isn't any/There is no musical arrangement without your music/tune
    So here:
    در هیچ پرده نیست نباشد نوای تو
    the poet is saying that ‘your آوا/tune/sound, is present in each پرده/stepً’ (i.e. in all possible notes & half notes) which is complemented by:
    عالم پر است از تو و خالسیت جای تو
     
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    fishcurl

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Hi. I think the first line may be interpreted as 'there is no scale in which your tune is not present'. 'Navaa', I believe, stands for a tune in a certain musical scale. Yet, according to the poet, the particular tune representing the beloved is reproduced in all the possible scales.
     

    calame

    Senior Member
    French
    PersoLatin, thank you for this interesting complement. Fishcurl, I think it is a clever interepretation you made !
     

    fishcurl

    Senior Member
    Persian
    For پرده :thumbsup::tick: Thanks. But I wonder what گام is, in that case, is it the same as پرده?
    Hello and a belated Happy New Year with all the best wishes to you, PersoLatin!

    In reply to your question I have to admit I don't know whether or not the پرده is exactly the same thing as scales (English) or gammes (French) in classical music. All I can tell you based on my limited knowledge and my lack of an ear for the intricacies of music is that they are similar.

    In classical Iranian - or is it Persian? I really don't know! - music, there is the مقام or دستگاه which is pretty similar to گام, because you can only go (sort of back and forth) so far inside each دستگاه and are allowed to use certain intervals only. Then, within each دستگاه (such as ماهور، همایون، نوا، راست پنج گاه، سه گاه، دشتی، شور), you often have a series of گوشه ها or پرده ها. These connote deviations from the main set of intervals, and are inserted in a piece that is performed, sometimes as an improvisation, to create contrast and (I suppose) to display the skillfulness of a virtuoso in 'going on walkabouts' and then returning to the initial دستگاه without making the unforgivable (!) mistake of re-entering into a completely different دستگاه. I suppose performing a پرده or گوشه may be comparable to the way the composer of a classical piece arranges his/her music so that within a major scale there are certain phrases that are in a minor scale.
     

    wordgumshoe

    Senior Member
    Persian- Iran
    It is also good to recite a verse by Rumi using "parde" in both meanings:
    نی ،حریف هرکه از یاری برید پرده هایش پرده های ما درید
    The first "پرده" refers to "steps between notes" while the second "پرده" means "veil/ curtain".
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Hello and a belated Happy New Year with all the best wishes to you, PersoLatin!

    In reply to your question I have to admit I don't know whether or not the پرده is exactly the same thing as scales (English) or gammes (French) in classical music. All I can tell you based on my limited knowledge and my lack of an ear for the intricacies of music is that they are similar.

    In classical Iranian - or is it Persian? I really don't know! - music, there is the مقام or دستگاه which is pretty similar to گام, because you can only go (sort of back and forth) so far inside each دستگاه and are allowed to use certain intervals only. Then, within each دستگاه (such as ماهور، همایون، نوا، راست پنج گاه، سه گاه، دشتی، شور), you often have a series of گوشه ها or پرده ها. These connote deviations from the main set of intervals, and are inserted in a piece that is performed, sometimes as an improvisation, to create contrast and (I suppose) to display the skillfulness of a virtuoso in 'going on walkabouts' and then returning to the initial دستگاه without making the unforgivable (!) mistake of re-entering into a completely different دستگاه. I suppose performing a پرده or گوشه may be comparable to the way the composer of a classical piece arranges his/her music so that within a major scale there are certain phrases that are in a minor scale.
    Thank you fishcurl and Happy New Year to you too.

    I think 'scale' for me is the best translation for پرده as used in the OP.
     

    fishcurl

    Senior Member
    Persian
    It is also good to recite a verse by Rumi using "parde" in both meanings:
    نی ،حریف هرکه از یاری برید پرده هایش پرده های ما درید
    The first "پرده" refers to "steps between notes" while the second "پرده" means "veil/ curtain".
    Thank you. This is nice. It may be good also to mention that پرده دریدن as a verb denotes either the bad deed of infringing on someone's privacy or the good act of making the mental and spiritual being within accessible. Rumi's poetry takes you places you almost don't want to go, doesn't it!
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    It may be good also to mention that پرده دریدن as a verb denotes either the bad deed of infringing on someone's privacy
    Or this could simply refer to the پرده گوش/eardrum being damaged due to unpleasant sounds from the cane. This assumes the anatomy of the ear was known at the time, we'll have to refer to Avecina for that, still, the level of music knowledge and sophistication of its use in poetry, is amazing.
     

    fishcurl

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Or this could simply refer to the پرده گوش/eardrum being damaged due to unpleasant sounds from the cane. This assumes the anatomy of the ear was known at the time, we'll have to refer to Avecina for that, still, the level of music knowledge and sophistication of its use in poetry, is amazing.
    I think the idea in the poem by Rumi is that the sound of the flute resonates with any man or woman who has had to part with their object of desire.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I think the idea in the poem by Rumi is that the sound of the flute resonates with any man or woman who has had to part with their object of desire.
    I agree this section: .......نی حریف هرکه از یاری برید - پرده هایش says that, but what about this پرده های ما درید........?
     

    ayiran

    Senior Member
    Persian-Iran
    I agree this section: .......نی حریف هرکه از یاری برید - پرده هایش says that, but what about this پرده های ما درید........?
    The second پرده is secret or inner thoughts of anyone
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    ^ in that case isn’t پرده‌ های ما درید best translated as ‘removed our inhibitions’?
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Perhaps one ought to read the whole poem first to be sure. Context is bound to help here.
    I think the intention of the poet here is that, music (here produced by ney) helps in loosing one's inhibitions (پرده‌ ها), which can lead to a reserved self disciplined person, for example, to start talking or tapping their feet/ humming to the rhythm, all of which provide a porthole into their inner self/person, very much like what happens when one drinks wine, but with lesser effect.
     
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