Persian cognate of Avestan arashi

  • fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    There is no Avestan word "arashi". Av. ərəš ‘rightly’ is cognate with NP rāst etc. Av. ərəši- ‘envy’ is cognate with NP rašk. There is no connection between the two.
     

    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    ^ ərəši- in the sense of ''priest-poet'' is mentioned in Yasna 31.5 and is of unknown etymology. Some propose it was a loanword into Proto Indo-Iranian.
     
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    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Yasna 31,5 (Ahunauuaitī Gāϑā). Whether ərəši- means ‘seer’ (Humbach) or ‘envy’ (Bartholomae) is debated, like everything in the Gathas.
     

    mojobadshah

    Senior Member
    If it helps to find the Persian cognate M.L. West says ereshi is akin to German raisan/ rasen "to rage." OED says the following: race (n.1) "act of running," c.1300, from Old Norse ras "running, rush (of water)," cognate with Old English ræs "a running, a rush, a leap, jump; a storming, an attack;" or else a survival of the Old English word with spelling influenced by the Old Norse one. The Norse and Old English words are from Proto-Germanic *res- (cf. Middle Dutch rasen "to rave, rage," German rasen, Old English raesettan "to rage" (of fire)), from a variant form of PIE *ers- "be in motion" (see err). Originally a northern word, it became general in English c.1550. Meaning "act of running" is from early 14c. Meaning "contest of speed" first recorded 1510s.

    If I'm not mistaken the reason ereshi is related to Ger. rasen "to rave or rage" is because these poet-priests would consume psychadelics that would throw them into mantic, sometimes rough, trances.

    The PIE according to Joseph T. Shipley is *ergh and is related to a few interesting English cognates raise, run. Could the ereshi have had anything to do with the doctrine of the Resurrection? In the NT Jesus calls himself "the Rising Again."
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    My point is simply that ərəši- occurs exactly once in the Avesta, in a very obscure passage. Nobody really knows what it means. In this circumstance it is not possible to propose a likely etymology.
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Can the second part of Xerxes's name be related with Skt. ṛṣi (as the Avestan term is obscure)?
    Xšaya-ṛšā / Xšayāršā
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Rüdiger Schmitt (following Hoffmann et al.) writes:

    “Old Persian Xšaya-šā is a compound with the verbal stem xšaya- “ruling” as the first element and the n-stem noun *šan- “hero, man” as the second element; the original n-stem paradigm, however, is preserved only in the nominative form, whereas the other cases are remodeled analogically in one way or another (see Kent, p. 65a); with the primary meaning “ruling over heroes” it is close to Ved. kayád-vīra- “id.” with a similar formation.”

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/xerxes-1-name
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Thanks. But, how secure is this *šan- “hero, man”? Do we have other cognates or attestations?
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    aršan- ‘man, hero, male animal’ is very common in the Avesta (see Bartholomae, AiWb 203), the regular Young Avestan reflex of *ṛšan- (Hoffmann, Aves. Laut- u. Flexionslehre 91); cf Gk ἄρσην, Ved. ṛṣabhá- ‘bull’.
     
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    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    Monier Williams doesn't define ṛṣabhá as a 'steer' (castrated bull), but somewhat contrarily as 'a bull (as impregnating the flock)'. The latter meaning seems to work better when considering the Avestan evidence; a virile bull is more "heroic" than a castrated one.
     

    mojobadshah

    Senior Member
    My point is simply that ərəši- occurs exactly once in the Avesta, in a very obscure passage. Nobody really knows what it means. In this circumstance it is not possible to propose a likely etymology.
    M.L. West seems pretty confidant that ereshi is akin to Ger. raissan which is PIE ergh, but shiply groups ergh with *rei and *res and river is lumped with rave and rage. If I'm not mistaken Av. Urvan "soul" and NPer. Ravan shenasi "psychology" and Rohani "spiritual leader" are indirectly relate to Av. Ereshi.
     

    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    ML West is not a comparative linguist. He is a scholar of Greek, particularly Ancient Greek classics.
     
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    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    My colleague M L West is a very distinguished classicist. Many years ago he wrote a book about Indian parallels to the Greek philosophers. This was severely criticised at the time. It was pointed out in particular that he would never have tolerated anyone writing about Greek authors if that person did not know Greek, and asking how West could venture to write about Indian texts without knowing any Sanskrit. West took the criticism to heart and actually learned Sanskrit, and Avestan too. Recently he has published his translation of the Gathas. This too has been rather fiercely criticised by specialists in Iranian studies. West’s strong point is that he actually tries to make sense of the texts rather than just translating words at random (as some others have done). But sometimes he bends the meaning of the words just a bit too much. The Gathas do remain an extremely obscure work.
     
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    mojobadshah

    Senior Member
    My colleague M L West is a very distinguished classicist. Many years ago he wrote a book about Indian parallels to the Greek philosophers. This was severely criticised at the time. It was pointed out in particular that he would never have tolerated anyone writing about Greek authors if that person did not know Greek, and asking how West could venture to write about Indian texts without knowing any Sanskrit. West took the criticism to heart and actually learned Sanskrit, and Avestan too. Recently he has published his translation of the Gathas. This too has been rather fiercely criticised by specialists in Iranian studies. West’s strong point is that he actually tries to make sense of the texts rather than just translating words at random (as some others have done). But sometimes he bends the meaning of the words just a bit too much. The Gathas do remain an extremely obscure work.

    He also wrote a good book on PIE and IE Poetry and myth.

    Also in regards to the Avesta being an obscure text I have been familiar with it for over a decade and I have not noticed so many obscurities. We are still able to recognize the Zoroastrian contribution to the core of the Abrahamic faiths.
     
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