Persian: Is نوده used in Iranian Persian?

HZKhan

Senior Member
Persian (Cultural Language)
Is the word نوده/навда/navda, which means a little and young branch of a tree, also used in Iranian Persian or is it only a Central Asian peculiarity?

"Одамон як олами бузургро бо хубӣ тақсим карда наметавонанд, аммо паррандаҳо бо меҳру муҳаббат дар як навда қомат рост мекунанд."
"آدمان یک عالم بزرگ را با خوبی تقسیم کرده نمی‌توانند، اما پرنده‌ها با مهر و محبت در یک نوده قامت راست می‌کنند."
 
  • colognial

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Hi, Pakistani Khan. I just noticed something. Going back to your transliteration of the word, I realize that it is quite possible we have the word, not as navda, but as nodeh, or, strictly speaking, no deh, with the half muted h pronounced only briefly.

    The meaning would then be 'new village'. This meaning is highly likely to be the true sense of the word in Iranian Persian, borne by the fact that so many Iranian villages carry this very name.

    The question in my mind is whether or not there's a kinship between navda in the sense of a bird's nest or an animal's small den, and nodeh as it refers to a rural settlement, either as proper noun or as an attribute.
     
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    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    The Persian word نو (originally pronounced naw but it has become no with a monophthong in Tehrani Persian) directly corresponds to Tajik нав (nav). However my guess is that the second element is different. Deh in Persian ‌نوده means 'village' as you said, thus ‌نوده = 'new village'. However I think a more likely meaning of the da part of Tajik navda is the stem of the word daadan, ie. dah, thus a young branch of a tree is 'newly-given' or recently grown. That seems to make more sense to me than some connection between a tree branch and a rural settlement, but again I am only speculating.
     

    colognial

    Senior Member
    Persian
    eskandar, the word is pronounced navda in Tajik Persian. I don't think we could pronounce the imperative 2nd person singular verb "da", could we? It's always "deh", is it not? (Your knowledge of Persian exceeds mine, so the question is not exactly rhetorical!)
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Is the word نوده/навда/navda, which means a little and young branch of a tree, also used in Iranian Persian or is it only a Central Asian peculiarity?

    "Одамон як олами бузургро бо хубӣ тақсим карда наметавонанд, аммо паррандаҳо бо меҳру муҳаббат дар як навда қомат рост мекунанд."
    "آدمان یک عالم بزرگ را با خوبی تقسیم کرده نمی‌توانند، اما پرنده‌ها با مهر و محبت در یک نوده قامت راست می‌کنند."
    This is what Steingass says.

    نوده nauda, Air, atmosphere; bold;--nawada, A grandchild; beloved offspring.

    So, the meaning of your sentence could be:

    Humans are unable to share (?) this big wide world yet birds stand up/live proudly within one atmosphere with kindness and love.
     
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    HZKhan

    Senior Member
    Persian (Cultural Language)
    This is what Steingass says. So


    نودهnauda, Air, atmosphere; bold;--nawada, A grandchild; beloved offspring.

    So, the meaning of your sentence could be:

    Humans are unable to share (?) this big wide world yet birds stand up/live proudly within one atmosphere with kindness and love.
    I don't think so. My reasons being: first, the authorized Tajik Persian dictionary doesn't give that meaning of the word, which means that it is safe to assume that a common Tajik wouldn't use the word in that connotation. And second, the facebook post, where I saw the sentence, vividly shows a branch on which birds are resting.

    While searching on google, I found that a famous Tajik poet Laiq Sher-Ali has also used the word in one of his poems:

    برگ سبز و نوده سبز،
    شاخساران شاد و شادابند از مادر-زمین
    لیک یک جای درختِ سبز خونین است
    .........

    By the way, there are some online instances of it being used in neighbouring Uzbeki language, too.
     
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    HZKhan

    Senior Member
    Persian (Cultural Language)
    Qureshpor saahib, I think قامت راست کردن means to rest. Maybe our Persian-speaking friends will be kind enough to shed some light on it.

    My guess is based on the fact that we also use a similar expression in Urdu: kamar siidhii karnaa.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Pakistani Khan SaaHib, thank you for the explanation. I did not know the meaning of "qaamat raast kardan" so I used a bit of guesswork. Obviously I got it wrong.
     

    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    eskandar, the word is pronounced navda in Tajik Persian. I don't think we could pronounce the imperative 2nd person singular verb "da", could we? It's always "deh", is it not? (Your knowledge of Persian exceeds mine, so the question is not exactly rhetorical!)
    colognial, my knowledge of Persian is undoubtedly less than yours! You are right, it would have to be deh (in Tajik Persian диҳ dih) and not *da. My mistake.

    By the way, there are some online instances of it being used in neighbouring Uzbeki language, too.
    There are many Uzbek loanwords in Tajik, and vice versa, so this could possibly be the source. Anyway, we can at least be sure that навда in Tajik is definitely used in the sense of "branch". In a translation of the Bible, we can see where the English word "branch" is used several times, the Tajik word навда is used, cf. John 15:2 and 15:4-6.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    [...]There are many Uzbek loanwords in Tajik, and vice versa, so this could possibly be the source. Anyway, we can at least be sure that навда in Tajik is definitely used in the sense of "branch". In a translation of the Bible, we can see where the English word "branch" is used several times, the Tajik word навда is used, cf. John 15:2 and 15:4-6.
    It is interesting that it is found in Steingass albeit not covering the "branch" meaning. And Steinbgass is said to be a dictionary of "Indo-Persian" usage.
     

    permawl

    New Member
    Persian
    Hi, the word is old persian (seemingly really really old) and it means branch/wood on trees. I think you can get what it means as a whole (in that sentence) and no Iranians don't use it, this word is so old that even for old poetry books they replace it with somewhat of newer words.
     

    colognial

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Hi, permawl. As you point out, the sentence quoted with birds and humans in it can still make sense even if the meaning is taken to be 'branch' or 'bough', rather than 'nest'. I believe Dehkhoda mentions this definition for the same entry. If you know of any old texts where this word has been used, I'd appreciate it if you would cite them here.
     

    permawl

    New Member
    Persian
    Hi, permawl. As you point out, the sentence quoted with birds and humans in it can still make sense even if the meaning is taken to be 'branch' or 'bough', rather than 'nest'. I believe Dehkhoda mentions this definition for the same entry. If you know of any old texts where this word has been used, I'd appreciate it if you would cite them here.
    ٰThe reason they translate it with other words in persian, is that it's a "Dari"دَری word, which is used in east of Iran and most of Afghanistan. It's not Farsi Afghani, don't do the common mistake here, sadly I don't have access to their literature to give you more examples of that word, but it definitely means branch :)
     

    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    «دری» همان «فارسی افغانی» است و بین این دو عبارت هیچ فرقی وجود ندارد، همانطور که مثلاً «رضائیه» همان «ارومیه» است. در افغانستان گاهی به این زبان «دری» گفته می‌شود و گاهی «فارسی» یا «فارسی دری».
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    In early Persian texts the words Fārsī (Arabic Fārisī) and Darī (from dar “court”) are used either as synonyms, or as names for two different varieties of Persian, but from about the 12th century “Darī” is used only rarely, and then virtually only in poetry. In Afghanistan “Darī” was revived about 100 years ago as the official designation for the Persian used in Afghanistan as opposed to the Persian of Iran, but in recent years many Afghans have become tired of nationalist posturing and have gone back to the traditional “Fārsī”.
     

    colognial

    Senior Member
    Persian
    ٰThe reason they translate it with other words in persian, is that it's a "Dari"دَری word, which is used in east of Iran and most of Afghanistan. It's not Farsi Afghani, don't do the common mistake here, sadly I don't have access to their literature to give you more examples of that word, but it definitely means branch :)
    I'm sure I wouldn't want to make mistakes, especially mistakes of the common type. ;) Is the word still in use, perhaps in some obscure, maybe rural, part of eastern Iran? But really, I'm quite convinced 'branch' is a likely enough meaning, to make the word equivalent, in certain instances, with the more modern word 'javaane' (جوانه), yes or no?
     
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