Persian: /parandeh/ and /farmaandeh/, but /parandeGaan/ and /farmaandeHaan/?

Haji Firouz

Member
Romanian
Hello,

So I was reading about forming plurals of nouns, and came across some examples:

پرنده /parandeh/ bird --> plural: پرندگان /parandegaan/ --> plural is formed by adding /-gaan/ suffix

گیاه /giaah/ plant --> plural: گیاهان /giaahaan/ --> plural is formed by adding /-haan/ suffix

After this, I tried drawing my own conclusions:
noun ending in /-eh/ forms plural in /--gaan/
noun ending in /-aah/ forms plural in /--haan/


Then, I came across:
فرمانده /farmaandeh/ commander, which ends in /-eh/ but forms its plural in /-haan/: فرماندهان /farmaandehaan/ (according to one of my sources quoted below: persiandee.com), so now I don't know what to think.
Where is the mistake in my logic?

According to the source I am looking at:
If the noun ends with the vowel "ه", then the linking consonant will be "گ" and the letter "ه" will be omitted (short vowels need not be written when they are not the last sound of a word). Notice that liaison does not occur if the ending letter of the noun is originally a consonant "ه".
... but what is the difference between vowel "ه" and consonant "ه"? How would you tell them apart with some/one example(s)?

So, in summary, these 2 words rhyme in singular: /parandeh/ and /farmaandeh/, but the plurals are different: /parandegaan/ and /farmaandehaan/, and I can't figure out why.
As usual, appreciate your comments. They are very enlightening.

Best regards,
Ana-Maria
 
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  • PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    فرمانده /farmaandeh/ commander, which ends in /-eh/ but forms its plural in /-haan/: فرماندهان /farmaandehaan/ (according to one of my sources quoted below: persiandee.com), so now I don't know what to think.
    Where is the mistake in my logic?
    You are almost there but is this case فرماندهان is correct (see below)

    ... but what is the difference between vowel "ه" and consonant "ه"? How would you tell them apart with some/one example(s)?
    One is a silent 'h' the other is pronounced, the final /ه/ in پرنده is not pronounced, in fact it doesn't really exist and it's there to force the reader to pronounce the final vowel, /a/ or /e/ whereas in words line beh/به (good/quince), meh/مه(fog) and deh/ده(village/present stem of to give), it is pronounced, فرمانده is a compound word فرمان + ده (lit. order giver).

    The rule to make a plural using ân/ان: when a word ends in:
    1 A silent /h/ (non-existent), گان is added or silent /h/ is replace with گ e.g. ستارگان ,دیوانگان, آوارگان, همگان  and past participles of many verbs رفتگان, افتادگان
    2 Any other letter including h, ان is added, here فرماندهان
     
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    Haji Firouz

    Member
    Romanian
    Thank you! How interesting this is!

    On a side note, I once heard someone explaining sound of the letter "h" by saying it's similar to the sound you make when you exhale your breath onto a mirror or a window. Thought that was funny.

    Returning to our topic, to see if I understand: is it correct to say in /parandeh/ the /h/ is mute, but in /farmaandeh/, the /h/ is perfectly audible? Also, extrapolating, if I were to use a possesive syntagm, I'd say: /parandeye man/ (my bird) and /farmaandehe man/ (my commander), right?

    There should be a way to mark the silent versus audible /h/ in phonetical transcript... that would be very helpful. Thanks again!

    Best regards,
    Ana-Maria
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    There should be a way to mark the silent versus audible /h/ in phonetical transcript... that would be very helpful. Thanks again!
    Yes, I agree I always use é (the French pronunciation of é in French mangé, passé etc. or the final /e/ in Spanish and Italian words)

    if I were to use a possesive syntagm, I'd say: /parandeye man/ (my bird) and /farmaandehe man/ (my commander), right?
    unfortunately you won't hear farmândehe often, farmândéye is more popularly used, for all intents and purposes the final /h/ in فرمانده is silent, but you will hear it in مه زیاد/mehe ziâd (much fog), ده بالا/dehe bâlâ (the upper/higher village) or, به زرد/behe zard (the yellow quince)
     
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    Haji Firouz

    Member
    Romanian
    for all intents and purposes the final /h/ in فرمانده is silent
    when a word ends in: 1. A silent /h/ (non-existent), گان is added
    Not sure I don't understand, the /h/ is silent in /farmaandeh/, so why isn't /gaan/ added?

    And someone told me one can learn Persian in 3 months.
     
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    fj86

    New Member
    Persian-Iran
    Formation of plurals:
    A) Are they alive? as in humans, animals, plants, body parts... We use /aan/
    Woman: /zan/ زن Women /zanaan/ زنان
    Man: /mard/ مرد Men: /mardaan/ مردان
    Eye: /cheshm/ چشم Eyes: /cheshmaan/ چشمان
    Plant: /giah/ or /geeaah/ گیاه Plants: /giahaan/ or /geeaahaan/ گیاهان
    Commander: /Farmaandeh/ فرمانده Commanders: /farmaandehan/ فرماندهان
    Doctor: /pezeshk/ پزشک Doctors: /pezeshkaan/ پزشکان

    A-1) Words that end with «ه» /h/ their sound is "e" we remove «ه» then we add /gaan/

    Reptile: /khazandeh/ خزنده Reptiles: /khazandegaan/ خزندگان
    Bird: /parandeh/ پرنده Birds: /parandegaan/ پرندگان
    runner: /davande/ دونده runners: /davandegaan/ دوندگان

    In these words the /h/ «ه» is written but we don't pronounce it. Like you write "House" but you don't pronounce the "e" at the end.
    For /parandeh/ I suggest you listen to this song: "Googoosh parande"
    The song starts with /oon parande to boodi/: "you were that bird"

    B)Any thing that's not part of group (A)? We use /haa/
    Book: /ketab/ کتاب Books: /ketabhaa/ کتاب‌ها

    C)Exceptions.
    some words some with either /haa/ or /aan/ and they are correct either way:

    Tree: /derakht/ Trees: /derakhtaan/ or /derakhthaa/
    Eye: /cheshm/ Eyes: /cheshmaan/ or /cheshmhaa/

    Don't sweat it. Learning Farsi is not easy at all.
     

    Haji Firouz

    Member
    Romanian
    Hello fj86 & PersoLatin,

    Great explanations, thank you.

    There seems to be another case, something like:

    A-2) Words that end with «ه» /h/ their sound is e? we keep «ه» then we add /Haan/

    /farmaandeHaan/ seems to fit in A-2).

    Why, I am not sure.

    I am aware this small detail cannot hold me back or hinder my progress. It's just a beautiful feature of the language that arises my fascination and pushes me to dig a little deeper than I probably should, while a full chapter on Persian verbs (something more practical) lays by the side of my keyboard, waiting to be picked up. Sorry if I am putting anyone on the spot with my curiosity.

    PS. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look up "Parandeh", I'm sure I'll love it, like "Hamsafar" (another one of Googoosh's songs).
     
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    fj86

    New Member
    Persian-Iran
    I understand your fascination. I'm interested in learning Hindi and nobody around me understands why. There's no why. I just like it. It's beautiful. :)

    A-2) Words that end with «ه» /h/ their sound is e? we keep «ه» then we add /Haan/

    /farmaandeHaan/ seems to fit in A-2).

    What I meant to say here was this:
    If the /h/ at the end of the word is pronounced with /h/ sound then we leave it and we add /aan/
    When we say /farmaan-deh-aan/ we are using the /h/ or «ه» that was already there.

    When we pronounce فرمانده /farmandeh/ the /h/ sounds like "h" in "house."

    But in پرنده /parandeh/ we don't say the /h/ we say /parande/ like we don't pronounce the "h" in "yeah." (Am i right about this example?)
    That's why in the case of /parandeh/ پرنده or /bakhshandeh/ بخشنده or /khazandeh/ خزنده we use the A-1 rule. In this case we remove the /h/ and we add /gaan/. /bakhshandegaan/.

    I don't know if we're allowed to put links in our answers but there's a online Farsi dictionary. you can look up pronunciations in it.
    These are the links for the words we're discussing:

    Parande: /parande/
    Farmandeh: /farmāndeh/
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic, Persian
    Those nouns which forms plurals with -gân had a final -g in the Middle Persian stage and that -g- is a remnant of it.

    For example,

    rafte -> raftegân "those who are gone/dead"

    In Middle Persian rafte was raftag, so you can see why we have raftegân.

    Same with any word ending with -ande which is from MP -andag.

    The ه in these words is purely orthographic and not pronounced.

    farmândeh consists of farmân + deh, deh or dah is the present stem of dâdan.
     
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