Persian: Pronouncing ک as چ

lukebeadgcf

Senior Member
English – US
Hello!

I heard the word له کردن "to crush," and it very much sounded like it was pronounced له چردن. I was wondering when and why the ک turns into a چ more generally.

Thank you!
 
  • PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    I was wondering when and why the ک turns into a چ more generally.
    It doesn’t in any circumstance that I can think of, unless the person can’t pronounced their ک’s accurately. Even if the word before ک ends in a چ that won’t happen.
     
    Last edited:

    truce

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Hello!

    I heard the word له کردن "to crush," and it very much sounded like it was pronounced له چردن. I was wondering when and why the ک turns into a چ more generally.

    Thank you!
    In a standard Persian accent it doesn't happen. Only those with a specific Azari / Turkish dialect (mostly reside in the Northwestern Iran) might pronounce the letter "ک" similar to letter "چ".
     

    lukebeadgcf

    Senior Member
    English – US
    Thanks for your responses. I would have though it would be a standard Iranian accent since I heard it in Zootopia, dubbed in Persian. I can't upload an audio file, but if anyone has access to the film dubbed in Persian, it's at 2:25.
     

    truce

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Thanks for your responses. I would have though it would be a standard Iranian accent since I heard it in Zootopia, dubbed in Persian. I can't upload an audio file, but if anyone has access to the film dubbed in Persian, it's at 2:25.
    The phrase goes as " و شکارچیان میل زیستی غیر قابل کنترلی برای آسیب زدن و له کردن" at 1:21.
    Yes "کردن" in that phrase can be heard just a bit similar to "چردن" although it was quite normal to me.
    The reason maybe is that the dubber is practicing a childish voice.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    lukebeadgcf

    Senior Member
    English – US
    Thank you! I actually have a different version by Iran Film. The file was given to me. The voice and the words are different, but both say له کردن and pronounce it in approximately the same way.

    Ok, this is interesting. I don't know why this is throwing me off so much when it sounds more or less normal to native ears, especially in the context of a child speaking.

    One reason I thought it would be worth bringing this up is that in some Arabic dialects the ك is pronounced چ, especially in the presence of vowels like /i/ or /e/. For example, in this Iraqi Arabic example, notice that the second person feminine possessive suffix is pronounced اِچ instead of اِك as it would be formal Arabic and many "non-ك-affricating" dialects:

    1614893011398.png


    My transcription in Arabic: بَسّ المُصيبة وِيّا إِبِن خالِتْش

    Iraqi Arabic and Iranian Persian share certain features. For example, they both use مال for possession. I wonder if ك affrication is also a sprachbund feature between the languages.
     
    Last edited:

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    The phrase goes as " و شکارچیان میل زیستی غیر قابل کنترلی برای آسیب زدن و له کردن" at 1:21.
    Yes "کردن" in that phrase can be heard just a bit similar to "چردن" although it was quite normal to me.
    The reason maybe is that the dubber is practicing a childish voice.
    I listened to it too and as truce has said, an adult is imitating a child's voice and that's why, I have never heard children speak like by the way, but that seems to be the standard style when adult voice actors do children's voices, in Iran at least. A similar thing happens with the 'sh' sound.
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    As a foreigner, I think, I know what OP is talking about. I haven't listened to the video, but I also hear Persian k before a/e/i as strongly palatalised, giving it a certain چ-like flavour. It is however not as strong as in certain Azeri accents, but more like standard Turkish accent. In any case, no matter what it sounds like to us, I believe, ک and چ always remain distinct for native Persian speakers. So, just train yourself to hear the difference even before the front vowels.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    As a foreigner, I think, I know what OP is talking about. I haven't listened to the video, but I also hear Persian k before a/e/i as strongly palatalised, giving it a certain چ-like flavour. It is however not as strong as in certain Azeri accents, but more like standard Turkish accent. In any case, no matter what it sounds like to us, I believe, ک and چ always remain distinct for native Persian speakers. So, just train yourself to hear the difference even before the front vowels.
    I once mentioned ina post that, to my ears the pronunciation of 'p' sounds like 'b' mainly by Pakistanis speaking English, in films and on TV, that thought was rebuffed and the defence used was that 'p' is in all languages in the sub continent (I guess they meant unlike Arabic), I can now understand why that idea was so quickly rebuffed. There are many subtle differences in pronunciation in Persian (and other languages) that native speakers are simply unaware of.
     
    Last edited:

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I once mentioned ina post that, to my ears the pronunciation of 'p' sounds like 'b' mainly by Pakistanis speaking English, in films and on TV, that thought was rebuffed and the defence used was that 'p' is in all languages in the sub continent (I guess they meant unlike Arabic), I can now understand why that idea was so quickly rebuffed. There are many subtle differences in pronunciation in Persian (and other languages) that native speakers are simply unaware of.
    I once mentioned ina post that, to my ears the pronunciation of 'p' sounds like 'b' mainly by Pakistanis speaking English, in films and on TV, that thought was rebuffed and the defence used was that 'p' is in all languages in the sub continent (I guess they meant unlike Arabic), I can now understand why that idea was so quickly rebuffed. There are many subtle differences in pronunciation in Persian (and other languages) that native speakers are simply unaware of.
    The thread you have in mind is the following and the post number is 29 in which Arabic is clearly meantioned which lacks the p sound. The latter fact already had ben mentioned in post 22. By the way, your post in question (23) mentions Asians and not Pakistanis.

    Urdu-Persian: k/g variation in words

    One thing did not occur to me at the time but I would like to mention it here now. In Modern Persian پ، ت، چ، ک are aspirated whereas the same are unaspirated in Urdu. If it helps you to understand what I mean by this, پ، چ، ک are aspirated in English too (ت we know does not exist in English. The English t is not the same as ت). Perhaps, you were perceiving the unaspirated p as a b. Just a thought. (The p in speak would be unaspirated).

    Persian: Aspirated Consonants
     
    Last edited:
    • Agree
    Reactions: Dib

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Perhaps, you were perceiving the unaspirated p as a b. Just a thought. (The p in speak would be unaspirated).

    That would be my guess as well. AFAIK, in Persian, this deaspiration after s like in English does not occur. Even more reason for hearing a subcontinental p as b for a native Persian speaker.
     
    Top