Persian Seh (see)

  • ahvalj

    Senior Member
    The Common Germanic word for "sea" is reconstructed as *saiwiz~*saiwaz (Orel VE · 2003 · A handbook of Germanic etymology: 314; Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic: 423). Does this still resemble the Persian word?
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    I said "see" (perceive with the eyes) not "sea".
    Oh, sorry. Dementia, you know…

    So, for "to see" we have *sexwanan (Orel VE · 2003 · A handbook of Germanic etymology: 323; Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic: 431–432) from PIE *sekʷ-, cognate to the Hittite šakuu̯aı̯at "he saw, he looked", Old Indic sacāmi "I observe, I follow", Greek ἕπομαι "I follow", Latin sequor "I follow", Lithuanian seku "I follow", Belarusian сачу/saču "I watch", all cognate further to the Anatolian words for "eye": Hittite šākuu̯a-, Luwian tawa-~tawi- and Lycian tawa ("eyes"). The verb has a cognate in Avestan as well, e. g. hacaitē "he follows", with the absolutely expected Iranic *s->h- and *e>a. In Middle Persian its continuation is hāxtan "to lead, to guide" (Расторгуева ВС, Эдельман ДИ · 2007 · Этимологический словарь иранских языков. Том 3. f–h: 338–339; Cheung J · 2007 · Etymological dictionary of the Iranian verb: 124–125).
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    ... Old Indic sacāmi "I observe, I follow", Greek ἕπομαι "I follow", Latin sequor "I follow", Lithuanian seku "I follow", ... cognate in Avestan as well, e. g. hacaitē "he follows"
    Pokorny considered two *sekʷ roots for "to follow" and "to see", and put those Indo-Iranian words under the former, depriving the latter from an IIr cognate. Are they now considered the same root? (well, "to see" > "to watch" > "to follow" is verily a logical semantic sequence).
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Pokorny considered two *sekʷ roots for "to follow" and "to see", and put those Indo-Iranian words under the former, depriving the latter from an IIr cognate. Are they now considered the same root? (well, "to see" > "to watch" > "to follow" is verily a logical semantic sequence).
    I think it's a matter of taste: we have no tools to evaluate that. Logically speaking, if there were no phonetic distinctions between *sekʷ- I and *sekʷ- II (like e. g. high tone vs. low tone), and semantically both were very close, they should had merged back in PIE. Actually, slight or not so slight discrepancies in meaning are rather typical for daughter lineages, e. g. the classical *bʰer- is "to carry" in most branches, but "to take" in Slavic and "to strew" in Baltic.
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    There is actually one more variant of *sekʷ- with the meaning "to tell":
    *sekʷ- → Lithuanian seku "I tell", Greek ἐννέπω "I say, I announce", Latin inquit "he says"
    *sokʷeı̯-~sokʷeı̯e- → Lithuanian sakyti, Latvian sacīt, Germanic *saǥjanan "to say" (also *saǥōn "saga, tale, story")

    The Slavic continuation of *sokʷeı̯- may be explained from either "to see", "to watch", "to follow" or "to tell": Serbian Church Slavonic сочѫ/sočǫ "I indicate", Belarusian (cited above) сачу/saču "I watch", Old Russian сочу/soču "I seek, I find out, I inquire, I tell, I inform, I report, I accuse, I hunt down".
     

    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    There is actually one more variant of *sekʷ- with the meaning "to tell":
    *sekʷ- → Lithuanian seku "I tell", Greek ἐννέπω "I say, I announce", Latin inquit "he says"
    *sokʷeı̯-~sokʷeı̯e- → Lithuanian sakyti, Latvian sacīt, Germanic *saǥjanan "to say" (also *saǥōn "saga, tale, story")
    And Persian saxon (speech).
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Middle Persian sahistan, present stem sah- means “to seem, to seem proper”, not “to see”. It belongs to the Iranian root sand-, zero-grade sad- > Persian sah-, cognate with Sanskrit cand-, Latin censeo etc. It appears with preverb pati- also in New Persian pasandīdan “to approve”.
     

    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    In Middle Persian there is also sohistan, present stem soh-, which means "to touch, to feel".
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    This is a good Persian article about the verb sahestan: http://www.ensani.ir/storage/Files/20120426181325-5196-117.pdf

    It strongly believes this verb just means "to see", for example it mentions a Middle Persian book entitled "Afdih o sahikih e Sagastan" and says the word sahikih clearly means "seeable" here.
    Did you really read that paper? It says what fdb said in #10. In nowhere it said sahikih means "seeable". It said it means دیدنی that is "worthy/proper to be seen". The author seems to believe it meant "to see" (literally) as well but fails to support it (all his MP examples are "to seem good" or "to prefer").

    سو means "light" (or "dim light") not "sight". Its usage for "eye" is metaphorical akin to using نور for the same purpose. In olden days, many believed that light came out of eyes in order to see objects. So, if you couldn't see properly, it meant your eyes did not produce enough light (سو or نور).
     

    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    Middle Persian sahistan, present stem sah- means “to seem, to seem proper”, not “to see”. It belongs to the Iranian root sand-, zero-grade sad- > Persian sah-, cognate with Sanskrit cand-, Latin censeo etc. It appears with preverb pati- also in New Persian pasandīdan “to approve”.
    What does Sanskrit cand mean?
     

    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    Did you really read that paper? It says what fdb said in #10. In nowhere it said sahikih means "seeable". It said it means دیدنی that is "worthy/proper to be seen". The author seems to believe it meant "to see" (literally) as well but fails to support it (all his MP examples are "to seem good" or "to prefer").

    سو means "light" (or "dim light") not "sight". Its usage for "eye" is metaphorical akin to using نور for the same purpose. In olden days, many believed that light came out of eyes in order to see objects. So, if you couldn't see properly, it meant your eyes did not produce enough light (سو or نور).
    In my first post I also said that sahestan means "to seem" but fdb says it can't mean "to see" which is clearly wrong, I think the problem is about the verb "to seem", in English it relates to "impression" (Persian gaman گمان) but in Persian it relates to "look" (Persian negah نگاه), in fact in Persian there is no difference between "it seems good" and "it looks good".
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    What does Sanskrit cand mean?
    chand- (not cand- ; my mistake) “to appear, to please”, present stem chadaya-, like Old Persain ϑadaya- “to seem”, Avestan saδaiia- “to seem good”; also Skt. chandu- “pleasant”.
     
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    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
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    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    chand- (not cand- ; my mistake) “to appear, to please”, present stem chadaya-, like Old Persain ϑadaya- “to seem”, Avestan saδaiia- “to seem good”; also Skt. chandu- “pleasant”.
    Ok, if we want to consider sound changes, this word in the Middle Persian should be "hand" which like Pashto اند: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/اند#Pashto means "view, thought", this word can be seen in Persian words like انداخت or اندیش or اندرز , ... it is good to mention Arabic handasa (geometry) also relates to this word.
     
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    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic, Persian
    Does anyone actually know what is the etymology of colloquial سی/سیل/سه کردن "to look"? According to this it is related to سهستن:

    نگاه کردن این فعل بدلی است از سهستن یا سهیستن در زبان پارسی به مانا (معنای ) نگریستن و نگاه کردن در گویشهای تهرانی کهنه و شیرازی واژگان بسه یا سی (سیل) یا سه کو ( سه کن ) به فراوانی شنیده میشود. در لری کهگیلویه و ممسنی و سپیدانی گویند سیل کن یا سی کو از این فعل میتوان ریخت های سهستن - سهیدن و سهیستن را بکار برد نزدیکی بی مانندی به see انگلیسی و se ژرمن اسکاندیناوی دارد واژگان پیشنهادی برگرفته : اندرسهستن - درسهستن = درنگریستن - غورکردن برسهستن - ابرسهستن = مشرف بودن - از بالا نگریستن - نگاه اشرافی داشتن به چیزی فراسهستن = دور دیدن - آینده را دیدن - گسترده و جامع نگریستن به داستان یا چیزی فروسهستن = خوار دیدن - کوچک شمردن - کم دیدن - دست کم گرفتن
    معنی سیل کردن | پارسی ویکی

    In my own dialect it's سِل.
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    I don't put too much faith in random entries in that site. The final /l/ is apparently etymological. The cluster /ey/ also suggests the possibility of a corruption of a longer cluster or consonants like /d/ or /g/. The initial /s/ can be from an older /s-/ but also from the preverb /us/. The final /l/ can be from either /r/ or /rd/. Given the word is used in as east as Dari, it is unlikely that it's a recent borrowing into SW Iranian.

    I wonder what is the possibility of t being from Ir. root *Hgar (to watch) as *us+Hgar > *sagar > *sayr > sayl (cf. *us+kar > sigal- "to think").
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic, Persian
    I now believe it's from seyr سیر which is a synonym of تماشا.

    Both words originally mean "walk around for recreation, sight-seeing, ramble", and the verbs for both seem to have developed into general "look/watch".
     
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