Persian/Turkish: similarities and differences

Hi Tisia and Bienvenidos,

I am curious... It looks to me like Farsi is an agglutinative language (?) that uses morphemes or suffixes. I see words like "darum" "giruftun", and I was wondering what the infinitive forms of the verbs are?

In Turkish, I think "I took the book" would be "kitabi ald?m", so you use the verb "almak", you take the stem al-, and then add the 1st person past definite suffix -im. The simple present tense would be "al?r?m" (with undotted i's), the continuous present "al?yorum". So you always use the stem and add morphemes.

My next question is does Farsi function in the same way, and is vowel harmony used? It looks to be the case, as I see giriftUm, darAm, borAm. I Turkish you would see okudUm (I read), yedIm, etc.... I am trying to think of an example where vowel harmony would lead to an -am suffix, but I cannot think of any now! Anyway, the vowels change, and I wonder if it is the same in Persian and in Afghan Farsi?

The morpheme -i seems to work the same as in PErsian, other morphemes include -da/-de (in), -dan/den (from), -a/-e (to). So my final question is does Farsi also function this way, in terms of using morphemes in a prepositional way?

Saludos!

P.S. Please forgive errors in my Turkish, my level is quite low but I'm trying to learn! And correct any errors!
 
  • Tisia

    Senior Member
    Iran, Persian, Kurdish, English, Finnish
    Hi goodgrammer

    You could say Persian is an agglutinative language since it has alot of those words that are made of combined elements especially the verbs like dust dashtan (to love), tamiz kardan (to clean). The infinitive form of daram(I have) is dashtan(to have) and for bordam(I took) is bordan (to take) or gereftam(I took or I bought) if gereftan(to take or to buy).
    As you see all the endings in the ínfinitive form end in en. When you conjugate them it goes like this for present tense:

    Gereftan (to take): mi+gir+subject suffix (mi shows it is in present tense, gir is the stem noun of the verb and Subject suffix or harmony is showing the person we are talking about: I , you.....)

    Man migiram= I take
    To migiri= You take
    Oo migirad= She/ He takes
    Ma migirim= We take
    Shoma migirid= You (plural) take
    Anha migirand= they take

    These are almost the same in both Iranian and Afghan farsi. Bienvenido could tell you that;)
    There are of course exceptions and I don't think you want to know them at the moment:)

    In answer to the last question: dar or tu (in or at), az(from), be(h)(to).
    Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
    Az khoneh (from home)
    Be madreseh(to school)

    Glad to answer you questions and ....
    ....regards
    Tisia
     
    Hi again, thanks for your answers! Now I see similarities, but also specific differences. Take for example the agglutinative nature of the languages, and your example:

    Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
    Az khoneh (from home)
    Be madreseh(to school)

    In Turkish these prepositions become part of the word:
    okulda - in school
    okulden - from home
    okula - to school

    (Again sorry if I make mistakes with Turkish!)

    One more little question though that you didn't answer - What about vowel harmony in Farsi?
     

    Tisia

    Senior Member
    Iran, Persian, Kurdish, English, Finnish
    No we don't have vowel harmony in Farsi, but still there should be some harmony for example when making a noun's plural.here few things you should know like when writing the plural of a noun. Some words are made plural by adding ha, some by adding an and few totally changes. eg..
    -Ketab(book)-> ketabha(books): you can not say ketaban, it doesn't sound nice.
    - Kudak(kid, child)->kudakan(kids, children): you can say kudakha (in colloquial) but formally sound a bit inharmonic.
    - Livan((drinking)glass)-> Livanha(glasses)-> Not correct to say Livanan
    - Rafiq(friend)-> Rofaqa(friends): better than saying rafiqha or rafigan though not wrong.

    This is really hard. I have never thought about Persian this way:confused: I know this is not an expert explanation but I really don't like googling:rolleyes:

    Tisia
     

    Tisia

    Senior Member
    Iran, Persian, Kurdish, English, Finnish
    Outsider said:
    I think Farsi (Persian) is fusional, like all Indo-European languages.
    Right but not as much as eg..German or Finnish(Uralic language not Indo-European) where they have words mixed to make one big one and make it hell difficult for us to learn.:p

    Tisia
     
    Again, very interesting, and here agin, totally different from Turkish, where vowel harmony is very strict. But it is an incredibly regular language with few irregularities.

    For example, to make the plural, you always use -ler or -lar:

    kitaplar - Books (notice "b" changes to "p" for a "harmonious" sound)
    bardaklar - glasses
    arkada?lar - friends

    But:
    ?eyler - things
    te?ekkurler - thanks
    servisler - services (adopted Englishism)

    Thanks for your explanations, now I think I understand that the real similarities lie in vocabulary...

    Tisia said:
    No we don't have vowel harmony in Farsi, but still there should be some harmony for example when making a noun's plural.here few things you should know like when writing the plural of a noun. Some words are made plural by adding ha, some by adding an and few totally changes. eg..
    -Ketab(book)-> ketabha(books): you can not say ketaban, it doesn't sound nice.
    - Kudak(kid, child)->kudakan(kids, children): you can say kudakha (in colloquial) but formally sound a bit inharmonic.
    - Livan((drinking)glass)-> Livanha(glasses)-> Not correct to say Livanan
    - Rafiq(friend)-> Rofaqa(friends): better than saying rafiqha or rafigan though not wrong.

    This is really hard. I have never thought about Persian this way:confused: I know this is not an expert explanation but I really don't like googling:rolleyes:

    Tisia
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Dear Badgrammar, Bienvenidos, Tisia, and anyone else interested in discussing Farsi:

    I'd like to remind you of WR Rule #9:

    Stay on the topic of the first post in each thread. If you wish to talk about a related subject, open a new thread.
    Jana had split the discussion about definite and indefinite articles from the thread Persian/Farsi: Tom Cruise's "Red Rose," and I have just split that thread into three separate threads:

    Farsi: Definite/indefinite articles
    Farsi: fruits/veggies
    Farsi/Turkish: similarities and differences (this thread)

    Please stick to one topic per thread. It'll make both our jobs as moderators and everyone's viewing that much easier.

    Thanks!
    elroy
    moderator
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    badgrammar said:
    I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you mean by fusional, Outsider?
    Here's the conjugation of the present indicative of the verb amar (to love) in Portuguese:

    amo
    amas
    ama
    amamos
    amais
    amam

    And here it is in the present subjunctive:

    ame
    ames
    ame
    amemos
    ameis
    amem

    Its root is am-, and as you can see you get the various different combinations of tense x person x number by adding certain suffixes to it. For each combination, there is a separate ending. For example, the ending -amos indicates the present indicative, first person plural. All this information is "fused" in a single ending.

    In an agglutinative language, the endings themselves can be broken down into various independent particles, each of which conveys a single piece of information. You might have one suffix for "present", another suffix for "indicative", another one for "first person", and separate one for "plural".
     

    Bienvenidos

    Senior Member
    USA
    Afghanistan/USA
    Elroy/Jana, thank you both very much for splitting the threads: I promise to stay on topic. :)

    Tisia said:
    Hi goodgrammer

    You could say Persian is an agglutinative language since it has alot of those words that are made of combined elements especially the verbs like dust dashtan (to love), tamiz kardan (to clean). The infinitive form of daram(I have) is dashtan(to have) and for bordam(I took) is bordan (to take) or gereftam(I took or I bought) if gereftan(to take or to buy).
    As you see all the endings in the ínfinitive form end in en. When you conjugate them it goes like this for present tense:

    Gereftan (to take): mi+gir+subject suffix (mi shows it is in present tense, gir is the stem noun of the verb and Subject suffix or harmony is showing the person we are talking about: I , you.....)

    Man migiram= I take
    To migiri= You take
    Oo migirad= She/ He takes
    Ma migirim= We take
    Shoma migirid= You (plural) take
    Anha migirand= they take

    These are almost the same in both Iranian and Afghan farsi. Bienvenido could tell you that;)
    There are of course exceptions and I don't think you want to know them at the moment:)

    In answer to the last question: dar or tu (in or at), az(from), be(h)(to).
    Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
    Az khoneh (from home)
    Be madreseh(to school)

    Glad to answer you questions and ....
    ....regards
    Tisia
    Hey badgrammar,

    As Tisia said, there are some exceptions, and you may or may not want to encounter them right now.

    Here is the part when the major differences between Iranian Persian and Afghan Farsi come into play. The verb conjugations are not identical! Tisia's examples are correct in Iranian Persian, and in written Afghan Farsi. But the thing is, the conjugations change once spoken. One pronoun is also different.

    Spoken Afghan Farsi Conjugation:
    I just have noted in parenthesis how I usually write them using the Roman alphabet (and accents).

    I take - Muh mígírum
    You take - To (Tú, Tu) mígírí
    She/He/It takes - Oo (U, Ú) mígíra
    We take - Ma (Mah) mígírím
    You (plural) and You (singular formal) take - Shoma (Shuma) mígírín
    They take - Wah, ishan mígírun

    As you can see, the they pronoun is different, and so are several of the verb conjugations. In addtion Shoma (Shuma) is used as the You (singular formal).

    But remember, when writing in Afghan Farsi, it's the same as Iranian Persian. So in writing, we wouldn't write "wo mígírun", we would write "anha mígírund". So Tisia's examples are 100% correct in written Afghan Farsi.

    Infinitives end in -an. I call Farsi the language of regular irregular verbs, because all endings are regular, but the stems change greatly from the infinitive.

    Khordan - to eat

    I eat = Muh míhorum
    You eat = Tu míhorí
    He/She/It eats = U míhora
    We eat = Mah míhorím
    You (plural) eat = Shuma míhorín
    They eat = Wo míhorun

    Other examples:

    Ruftan - to go
    I go - Muh mírum

    Zudan - to hit
    I hit - Muh mízunum

    Duwídan - to run
    I run - Muh míduwum

    Again, using the Roman alphabet, it is hard to accurately portray the verbs, but pronounciation works nevertheless.

    Bien
     

    Bienvenidos

    Senior Member
    USA
    Afghanistan/USA
    Tisia said:
    In answer to the last question: dar or tu (in or at), az(from), be(h)(to).
    Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
    Az khoneh (from home)
    Be madreseh(to school)

    Glad to answer you questions and ....
    ....regards
    Tisia
    Hope this isn't on topic....discussing the similarities and differences between the structure of prepositional phrases between dialects.

    In Afghan Farsi, it differs.

    The bíne uz sinf (inside the classroom)
    Az khoneh (from home, same in Iranian Persian)
    Ta muktub (to school)

    Bien
     

    Tisia

    Senior Member
    Iran, Persian, Kurdish, English, Finnish
    Bien, some Iranian scholars sometimes like to use words like this though it is old Persian. Still if you talk to me I understand since we still use words like senf(class, more social class like working class rather than school) and Maktab(for school)

    I have Afghan friends here and from them I have learned many of the differences.

    Regards
    Tisia
     
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