Persian, Urdu: خودکار and its derivatives

[Alfaaz]

Background: The idea for creating this thread came while considering the recent (and unanswered as of yet) thread: Hindi, Urdu: Automatic vs Automated vs Automatically

Here is an attempt to list terms derived from/related to خود کار and assign corresponding English words to them:

automatic - خود کار؛ خود کارانہ
automatically - خودبخود؛ از خود؛ خود کارانہ طور پر
automation - خود کاری یا خودکار سازی
automate - خودکار کرنا/کردن یا بنانا/ساختن
automated - خود کار یا خودکار شدہ یا خودکار ساختہ
automaticity - خود کاریت
automatable - قابلِ خودکاری/خودکار سازی

Questions:

• Are all of the attempted assignments (English words for the Persian/Urdu words) above accurate?
• What (if any) is the difference between خود کار and خود کارانہ?
• What would be the most appropriate option for automation: خود کاری or خودکار سازی?
  • Could خود کاری refer to both the process of making automatic and the state of being automatic...?
• What would be the most suitable option for automated: just خود کار again, خودکار شدہ, or خودکار ساختہ, or something else?
• Is خودکاریت employed in Persian? If not, what terms are used?

 

[truce]

The word "خودکارانه" is not used in Persian. Instead of that we would say "به صورت خودکار" or "به طور خودکار" or "به صورت / به طور اتوماتیک".

The word "automation" is mostly said "اتوماسیون". Rarely do I hear "خودکارسازی".

The word "خودکاری" does not mean "process of automation". It can mean "a pen".

"خودکار شده" might be used, but I would prefer to say "اتوماتیک شده".
"خودکار ساخته" is not natural to me.

"خودکاریت" is not used in Persian and it is a wrong word. The word "خودکار" is Persian, but the suffix "یت" is Arabic.

It should be noted that the word "خودکار" has a frequent usage in Persian, referring to "pen".

 

[PersoLatin]

• What (if any) is the difference between خود کار and خود کارانہ?

hi Alfaaz, I'm sure you know انه- is an adverb making suffix equivalent to -ly in English, which will make the two words have different meanings. As truce has explained, خودكارانه is not used in Persian, anyway.

One thing to add, I believe we have wasted خودكار in Persian , it should represent anything to do with 'automate' but it doesn't. It is mainly used for the modern ballpoint pen, I believe, because it works 'automatically' with regards to application of ink & doesn't have a nib that needs an ink reservoir, like a fountain pen.

 

[Alfaaz]

truce and PersoLatin: Thanks for the detailed and informative answers!

The word "خودکارانه" is not used in Persian. Instead of that we would say "به صورت خودکار" or "به طور خودکار" or "به صورت / به طور اتوماتیک".

hi Alfaaz, I'm sure you know انه- is an adverb making suffix equivalent to -ly in English, which will make the two words have different meanings. As truce has explained, خودكارانه is not used in Persian, anyway.

There were two points of confusion:

• Observations of online usage on Urdu pages: In some sentences, writers appear to have used it alone as an adverb, while it used as خودکارانہ طور پر/طریقے سے (equivalent to Persian بطور خودکارانہ as explained by truce) in others. The addition of طور پر/طریقے سے is usually employed to make an adverb from an adjective.
• In addition, aren't there many cases where adding -aanah can make the word an adjective as well and not necessarily always an adverb?
  • Examples: منصفانہ، امیرانہ، بادشاہانہ، وغیرہ

The word "خودکاری" does not mean "process of automation". It can mean "a pen".

Is this statement based on modern Persian usage or grammar?

• Isn't -kaarii used as a suffix to denote processes in other compounds such as کاشت کاری، شجر کاری، آب کاری، پیوند کاری، مینا کاری، وغیرہ?

"خودکاریت" is not used in Persian and it is a wrong word. The word "خودکار" is Persian, but the suffix "یت" is Arabic.

That is certainly correct! However, it seems Urdu sometimes takes a little bit of liberty in this regard and coins words which would otherwise be considered grammatically incorrect...!

• A few examples previously discussed in the forum: جنگلات، میمبران، لیڈران، خواہشات، نشانات، اپنایت، وغیرہ

This is why I was wondering how automaticity could be expressed in Persian (using خودکار, even though it is primarily used in modern Persian with the meaning of ballpoint pen as both of you have explained) and whether خود کاری could also (grammatically) represent this state (similar to بے خودی، بے فکری، بے یقینی، وغیرہ).

Thanks once again for everyone's help and I hope I am not incorrectly mixing up/misinterpreting various usages of suffixes, which might be leading to confusion...!?

 

[Aryaved]

Alfaaz ji, can you transliterate the Urdu/Farsi equivalents of the English words? Thanks in advance.

 

[PersoLatin]

There were two points of confusion:

• Observations of online usage on Urdu pages: In some sentences, writers appear to have used it alone as an adverb, while it used as خودکارانہ طور پر/طریقے سے (equivalent to Persian بطور خودکارانہ as explained by truce) in others. The addition of طور پر/طریقے سے is usually employed to make an adverb from an adjective.
• In addition, aren't there many cases where adding -aanah can make the word an adjective as well and not necessarily always an adverb?
  • Examples: منصفانہ، امیرانہ، بادشاہانہ، وغیرہ

The reference suggests the above words are both, adverbs & adjectives but that's not the case in Persian, they are always adverbs. That may not the case in Urdu, but it really should be, as this dual functionality has led to the Urdu speakers adding طریق and طور, to be doubly sure.

"خودکاریت" is not used in Persian and it is a wrong word. The word "خودکار" is Persian, but the suffix "یت" is Arabic.

I do agree with this but use of "خودکاریت" is lesser of the two evils , the first being dual functionality for بادشاہانہ. The fact that Persian doesn't use خودکار for 'automatic' shouldn't stop Urdu from using it (looks like it hasn't) and that's a good thing, maybe Persian will borrow it back when common sense prevails.

 

[Alfaaz]

Alfaaz ji, can you transliterate the Urdu/Farsi equivalents of the English words? Thanks in advance.

Here are transliterations of the words in the opening post (with questions marks next to words/phrases currently under discussion):

automatic - خود کار؛ خود کارانہ - xud-kaar; xud-kaaraanah?
automatically - خودبخود؛ از خود؛ خود کارانہ طور پر - xud ba-xud; az-xud; xud-kaaraanah taur par?
automation - خود کاری یا خودکار سازی - xud-kaarii? yaa xud-kaar saazii
automate - خودکار کرنا/کردن یا بنانا/ساختن - xudkaar karnaa/kardan yaa banaanaa/saaxtan
automated - خود کار یا خودکار شدہ یا خودکار ساختہ - xudkaar? yaa xudkaar-shudah yaa xudkaar-saxtah
automaticity - خود کاریت - xudkaariyat
automatable - قابلِ خودکاری/خودکار سازی - qaabil-e-xudkaarii?/xudkaar-saazii

According to the information provided by Persian-speaking forum members, xud-kaar isn't commonly used in modern Persian for automatic and carries the meaning of ballpoint pen instead.

The words mentioned in post #2 for Farsi appear to be transliterations based on the English (or French?) words. Persian-speaking forum members will hopefully provide corrections if there are any mistakes below! (The Urdu transliterations are included as well, just in case they might be of interest.)

اتوماسیون - atomaasiyuun (آٹومیشن - aaTomeshan)
اتوماتیک - atomaatiik (آٹومیٹک - aaTomaiTik)

 

[PersoLatin]

اتوماسیون - atomaasiyuun (آٹومیشن - aaTomeshan
اتوماتیک - atomaatiik (آٹومیٹک - aaTomaiTik)

اتوماسيون - otomâsion
اتوماتیک otomâtik

 

[Aryaved]

Here are transliterations of the words in the opening post (with questions marks next to words/phrases currently under discussion):

automatic - خود کار؛ خود کارانہ - xud-kaar; xud-kaaraanah?
automatically - خودبخود؛ از خود؛ خود کارانہ طور پر - xud ba-xud; az-xud; xud-kaaraanah taur par?
automation - خود کاری یا خودکار سازی - xud-kaarii? yaa xud-kaar saazii
automate - خودکار کرنا/کردن یا بنانا/ساختن - xudkaar karnaa/kardan yaa banaanaa/saaxtan
automated - خود کار یا خودکار شدہ یا خودکار ساختہ - xudkaar? yaa xudkaar-shudah yaa xudkaar-saxtah
automaticity - خود کاریت - xudkaariyat
automatable - قابلِ خودکاری/خودکار سازی - qaabil-e-xudkaarii?/xudkaar-saazii

According to the information provided by Persian-speaking forum members, xud-kaar isn't commonly used in modern Persian for automatic and carries the meaning of ballpoint pen instead.

The words mentioned in post #2 for Farsi appear to be transliterations based on the English (or French?) words. Persian-speaking forum members will hopefully provide corrections if there are any mistakes below! (The Urdu transliterations are included as well, just in case they might be of interest.)

اتوماسیون - atomaasiyuun (آٹومیشن - aaTomeshan)
اتوماتیک - atomaatiik (آٹومیٹک - aaTomaiTik)

Shukriya Dost!

 

[fdb]

The Persian xod-kār (“self-work”) for “ballpoint pen” is modelled on xod-newīs (“self-writer”) for “fountain pen”. The latter is obviously a calque on Russian автору́чка (“auto-pen”), a pen that refills itself.