Persian/Urdu: Dunyaawii vs dunyaa'ii

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Sheikh_14

Senior Member
English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
Dear Foreros,

From my understanding, whilst the Arabic dunyaawii is commonly used and understood as worldy, the word dunyaa'ii a Persianised variant is used though uncommonly as an alternative for global. Thus you may at times hear on the news dunyaa'ii cricket ke fulaaN and so on and so forth. Is dunyaa'ii though an accepted word? The nuanced variance in meaning does do it justice but I am merely looking for confirmation.

Best Regards,
Sheikh
 
  • Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Have you ever come across dunyaa'ii, Alfaaz saaHib or is it new to you?
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Glad to have you on board, Marrish saaHib and you would concur with the global (dunyaa'ii) vs worldly (dunyaawii) hypothesis?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^ janaab-e-man, before I can say something about your question regarding any difference of meaning between dunyaa'ii and dunyaawii why not clarify some other issues first so that our discussion is supported by sources or some examples. I've got to share some entries from luGhaat-e-roz~marrah by Prof. Shamsul Rahman Faruqi (he needs no introduction). But if you happen to be able to cite some sentences from colloquial speech too, it will be a source too. Of course literary examples would be very nice and people I count on in this regard know who they are :), but everybody is welcome!

    دنیا عربی میں الف مقصورہ سے "دنییٰ" تھا۔ اردو فارسی میں سیدھے الف ہی سے صحیح ہے۔


    دنیاوی قاعدے کے لحاظ سے یہ لفظ "دنیوی" ہونا چاہئے تھا یعنی دنییٰ/دنیوی۔ لیکن اردو والوں نے "دنیا" میں سیدھا الف فرض کر کے یاے نسبتی لگائی اور الف مقصورہ فرض کر کے یاے نسبتی کے پہلے واؤ لگا دیا! اسے لفظ سازی میں تخلیقی خلط مبحث ہی کہا جائے گا۔ اور لطف یہ ہے کہ قاعدے کے مطابق جو صحیح لفظ بنایا "دنیوی"، وہ بھی اردو میں انھیں معنی میں رائج ہے۔



    دنیوی اول مضموم، سوم مفتوح، بمعنی دنیاوی"، اصل عربی لفظ ہے۔ لیکن اب اردو میں "دنیاوی" زیادہ رائج ہو گیا ہے۔ "دنیوی" بھی بولتے ہیں، مثلاً "دینی و دنیوی" لیکن اس کا چلن اب کم ہے۔ اردو میں بہر حال دونوں درست ہیں۔


    I am not in a position to confirm or deny that dunyaa'ii is Persian(ized) form. I'd like to hear from @PersoLatin about it as he graces sometimes Urdu threads with his attention.
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    I can't say much with regards to how dunyaa'ii has come to being in Urdu but it is most certainly a word that Persian has within its diction. In what manner well a Perso-literate individual would be far more suited than I. However, and this is the crux of my question which is that as far as Urdu usage of dunyaa'ii is concerned it is markedly different to dunyaawii in that it related to a global matter of any sort such as dunyaa'ii cricket/football/siyaasat, whereas dunyaawii relates explicitly to worldly/temporal matters rather than the globe per se. In other words dunyaa'ii is being used as an equivalent of a'lamii whereas dunyaawii is a different kettle of fish.
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    I am not in a position to confirm or deny that dunyaa'ii is Persian(ized) form. I'd like to hear from @PersoLatin about it as he graces sometimes Urdu threads with his attention.
    It seems the -vii/-wii suffix is both Persian and Arabic, and with the same meaning in both languages. For example, dunyaawii is Arabic, but the -vii/-wii in dehlvii, lakhnavii, hindavii, etc. are considered Persian. I'm curious how this shared suffix came about.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    To help a bit I'll roughly translate the entries from Faruqi's rozmarrah: (for those who don't read Urdu)

    دنیا عربی میں الف مقصورہ سے "دنییٰ" تھا۔ اردو فارسی میں سیدھے الف ہی سے صحیح ہے۔

    دنیا dunyaa. In Arabic it was دنییٰ with a maqsuura alif. In Urdu and Persian it's correct just with a straight alif.

    دنیاوی قاعدے کے لحاظ سے یہ لفظ "دنیوی" ہونا چاہئے تھا یعنی دنییٰ/دنیوی۔ لیکن اردو والوں نے "دنیا" میں سیدھا الف فرض کر کے یاے نسبتی لگائی اور الف مقصورہ فرض کرکے یاے نسبتی کے پہلے واؤ لگا دیا! اسے لفظ سازی میں تخلیقی خلط مبحث ہی کہا جائے گا۔ اور لطف یہ ہے کہ قاعدے کے مطابق جو صحیح لفظ بنایا "دنیوی"، وہ بھی اردو میں انھیں معنی میں رائج ہے۔
    دنیاوی As per the rules, this word should have been دنییٰ/دنیوی, but Urdu speakers assumed a straight alif in دنیا and attached yaa-e-nisbati (-ii adjectival) and assuming an alif maqsuurah they added a vaav before this yaa-e-nisbatii! We can but call it a disputable jumble in creative word-formation, but the nice thing about it that the word which is correct according to the rules, دنیوی dunyavii, is also current in Urdu with the same meanings.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    It seems the -vii/-wii suffix is both Persian and Arabic, and with the same meaning in both languages. For example, dunyaawii is Arabic, but the -vii/-wii in dehlvii, lakhnavii, hindavii, etc. are considered Persian. I'm curious how this shared suffix came about.
    This suffix is Arabic in dunyawii with a short "a", in dunyaawii it seems to be a different story according to the above excerpt from Prof. Faruqi. I am curious how the Persian speakers look at this matter.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    in dunyaawii it seems to be a different story according to the above excerpt from Prof. Faruqi. I am curious how the Persian speakers look at this matter.
    I haven't heard of dunyaawii/دنیاوی in Persian, but دنیا یی yes, it has the Persian suffix ی which doubles up to یی as دنیا ends in vowel.
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    This suffix is Arabic in dunyawii with a short "a", in dunyaawii it seems to be a different story according to the above excerpt from Prof. Faruqi. I am curious how the Persian speakers look at this matter.
    Platts considers dunyaawii to be the Arabic form.

    A دنياوي dunyāwī, = P دنيوي dunyawī, adj. Belonging to the world, worldly, secular.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Platts considers dunyaawii to be the Arabic form.

    A دنياوي dunyāwī, = P دنيوي dunyawī, adj. Belonging to the world, worldly, secular.
    That's surprising enough to say it must be a misunderstanding. دُنْيَوِيّ dunyawiy is Arabic, دنيوي - قاموس WordReference.com عربي - إنجليزي

    But dunyaawii appears to be Arabic as well!
    دُنِياوِيٌّ :
    ن . دُنْيَوِيٌّ .
    from here
    I don't know what ن stands for.

    I haven't heard of dunyaawii/دنیاوی in Persian, but دنیا یی yes, it has the Persian suffix ی which doubles up to یی as دنیا ends in vowel.
    Thank you for your contribution!
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    I haven't heard of dunyaawii/دنیاوی in Persian, but دنیا یی yes, it has the Persian suffix ی which doubles up to یی as دنیا ends in vowel.
    All three must be there in literary Persian if not spoken Persian because they are in Hayyim: دنیاوی / دنیایی/ دنیوی
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Alfaaz said:
    Have you ever come across dunyaa'ii, Alfaaz saaHib or is it new to you?
    I don't think I have come across dunyaa'ii in spoken Urdu.
    marrish said:
    This suffix is Arabic in dunyawii with a short "a", in dunyaawii it seems to be a different story according to the above excerpt from Prof. Faruqi.
    In light of the information from the Arabic forum thread, does it not seem that Professor Faruqi's explanation might be partially incorrect...?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^ Thanks for noticing that thread and linking it here. I'd rather wait for more answers in that thread to draw conclusions.

    Everyone is welcome to participate in that thread (Arabic forum).
     
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