Persian, Urdu, Punjabi, Hindi: jam, jelly, marmalade, PB etc

Alfaaz

Senior Member
English
Please match each of the following with the most appropriate term (and/or provide additional words which aren't included below for any of the languages)!



  1. Jam
  2. Jelly
  3. Marmalade
  4. Butter (peanut, almond, etc.)
  5. anything else...?

a. مربا / مربّیٰ / مربّہ (murabbaa)
b. رب (rub)
c. معجون (ma'juun)
d. نارنگی (naarangi)
e. any others...?

 
  • eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    For contemporary Iranian Persian:

    1. Jam: مربّا *
    2. Jelly: a French loanword ژله is used
    3. Marmalade: I'm not actually sure what the difference between marmalade and jam is. I think مربّا would commonly be used, and there is also the French loanword مارمالاد
    4. Peanut/almond/etc. butter: کرهٔ بادام زمینی (peanut butter) or کرهٔ بادام (almond butter). This is a literal translation as کره means butter.
    5. Paste: رب (ie. tomato paste = رب گوجه فرنگی or pomegranate paste used in cooking = رب انار)

    *At least in Persian, مربّا is the correct spelling for 'jam', as مرّبی means 'educator' and مربّیٰ (with the alif maqsura) means 'educated'. We don't have مربّہ in Persian to the best of my knowledge.

    نارنگی in Persian just refers to a citrus fruit (Mandarine orange) and could be used in a compound like مربای نارنگی 'orange jam/marmalade'. I'm not sure how معجون would be used in Persian.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    For contemporary Iranian Persian:

    1. Jam: مربّا *
    2. Jelly: a French loanword ژله is used
    3. Marmalade: I'm not actually sure what the difference between marmalade and jam is. I think مربّا would commonly be used, and there is also the French loanword مارمالاد
    4. Peanut/almond/etc. butter: کرهٔ بادام زمینی (peanut butter) or کرهٔ بادام (almond butter). This is a literal translation as کره means butter.
    5. Paste: رب (ie. tomato paste = رب گوجه فرنگی or pomegranate paste used in cooking = رب انار)

    *At least in Persian, مربّا is the correct spelling for 'jam', as مرّبی means 'educator' and مربّیٰ (with the alif maqsura) means 'educated'. We don't have مربّہ in Persian to the best of my knowledge.

    نارنگی in Persian just refers to a citrus fruit (Mandarine orange) and could be used in a compound like مربای نارنگی 'orange jam/marmalade'. I'm not sure how معجون would be used in Persian.

    Firstly, the spelling issue.

    murabban (Arabic) pronounced "murabbaa" does indeed mean "educator", "well-bred/mannered" but, believe it or not, it also means "jam", "preserved fruit" with the plural "murabbayaat" (preserves)! So, the correct Urdu (and in theory Persian too) spelling ought to be مربّیٰ for "jam". Almost invarianly, it is written as "مربّہ" in Urdu.

    jams, marmalades and jellies are all types of fruit preserves. Marmalades have the distinction of having citrus fruits as their base, mainly orange. And talking about oranges "naarangii"* is the traditional word for an orange and I believe its origins are Chinese and the English word "orange" is linked to it. Growing up in the Punjab, an orange was always a "maalTaa". This I think was only a variety based on an orange from "Malta". I don't think I had heard of "Jelly" until one got associated with the English speaking world.

    So, going back to Alfaaz SaaHib's quiz..

    "rub" is new to me and my dictionary tells me it is just an "extract". ma3juun is "paste". Another common word is "le2ii".

    1a murabbaa 2? 3 liimuuN/naarangii/maalTe kaa murabbaa 4) muuNg-phalii kaa ghii/baadaam kaa ghii (tel?)

    A "martabaan" is a large jar in which, traditionally, "murabbaa" used to be made. I remember vividly that in our house hold, "gaajar kaa murabbaa" was made on a regular basis.

    Alfaaz SaaHib, thanks for starting this thread. muNh se paanii keyboard par Tapakne lagaa hai!

    * There is a famous "dohaa" by Kabir incorporating this word. I shall leave this for someone else to quote.
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Thanks for your detailed answers eskandar and QP SaaHibaan!

    My ideas/reasoning/logic/guesses:

    Jelly: رب: seems to fit perfectly with the definition (that is, if the definition is correct and correctly understood be me): پکا کر گاڑھا کیا ہوا نیز جما ہوا عرق، نچوڑ یا رس۔
    Jam: معجون : as mentioned above means "paste" : گوندھا ہوا، خمیر کیا ہوا، مرکب، باہم آمیختہ، ملا ہوا۔ , but seems like it could also be used for dough...
    Jam with real fruit pieces/chunks: مربّیٰ

    • Marmalade: this could probably be classified as a jam and murabbaa. Might be wrong, but this seemed to have become amongst some people (wrongly) popular as just نارنگی (which as eskander SaaHib mentions is orange), perhaps because food companies would write نارنگی on the bottle...people just started referring to it as simply naarngi, instead of naarangi murabbaa...?
      • included this under Jam because traditionally "marmalade" seemed to refer to the food substance made of oranges/citrus fruits, but now seems to be used for other fruits (jams with diced pieces) as well, depending on locations...
    Butters (pureed/pasted nuts): not sure about this...probably معجون also works for this...
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    eskandar said:
    This is a literal translation as کره means butter.
    Really interesting! What is the origin of this word (Persian, French, Arabic...)? Before reading this sentence, I was reading the first sentence as something like "sphere of almond"...!

    Also if کره is used for butter, would بادام روغن be almond oil?
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    According to me رب means 'The Lord; master; owner' whereas معجون is a herbal preparation.
    OK, I see! (That would be rab with a zabar. This is rub with a pesh.)
    So this could just be a matter of lack of familiarity with the words...? --> because from your original reply I thought that maybe the definitions I quoted above (from both Platts and Urdu dictionaries) were wrong...which is why I asked you what they mean.
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    How do you translate "chapati" or "kofta" or "dosa" in English? Or in any other language of the world? Or do you translate "sushi" or "pasta"? You don't. Similarly, one doesn't and can't and shouldn't translate jams, jellies and marmalades into Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi/Persian. As simple as that.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    greatbear said:
    How do you translate "chapati" or "kofta" or "dosa" in English? Or in any other language of the world? Or do you translate "sushi" or "pasta"? You don't.
    flatbread, meatball, crepe (at least that's one of the "translations" used in Indian restaurants abroad)! Sushi and pasta mostly isn't translated. (more on this below)
    Similarly, one doesn't and can't and shouldn't translate jams, jellies and marmalades into Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi/Persian.
    I'm afraid that perhaps you didn't read the OP post carefully. The idea wasn't to translate. It was to match the Arabic, Persian, Urdu terms with the English terms listed to better understand and be able to differentiate the usage of the Arabic, Persian, and Urdu terms.

    I agree with you on some of the examples you give above (like sushi) which could be particular to one culture and might be used in its original form across other cultures and languages. On the other hand, take the example of the Persian aachaar / pickles in English , existing in multiple cultures and different languages would therefore have different words to describe the concept. That wouldn't mean that they are all trying to translate aachaar...!

    Preserves (jams, jellies and marmalades) have been a part of Arabic, Persian, Urdu culture/language in addition to English, French, etc. At least that's what is seems like, as there are words for the concepts. Therefore, it was not a matter of translating (at least it wasn't meant to be)! "As simple as that."

    Included Punjabi and Hindi : 1) to be inclusive and get Punajbi & Hindi speakers' opinions and 2) thinking that it might allow for new words to come up...

    Your response seems to suggest that either there aren't words for such a concept in Hindi or if they do exist, then there might be a lack of familiarity with Hindi terms for such (due to usage of English terms)...
     
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    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    flatbread, meatball, crepe (at least that's one of the "translations" used in Indian restaurants abroad)!

    Which all are wrong translations! What you've seen in an Indian restaurant doesn't have to do anything with it: an Indian restaurant has to give some sort of an idea to those who don't know the Indian dishes to what their dishes resemble. Just as when someone doesn't know crepe, I explain that it's a sort of French "cheelaa", even though actually a cheelaa is made in a very different manner to a crepe. That does not mean that crepe can be translated to cheelaa.
    A
    chapati is as much Indian as sushi is Japanese or crepe is French: one can't translate either of the three. One can translate "achaar" because pickles have existed in various cultures. One can't even translate "dahii" to yogurt, in fact, because "dahii" is a type of yogurt, the latter being generic while the former being specific.

    Preserves (jams, jellies and marmalades) have been a part of Arabic, Persian, Urdu culture/language in addition to English, French, etc. At least that's what is seems like, as there are words for the concepts. Therefore, it was not a matter of translating (at least it wasn't meant to be)! "As simple as that."
    ...
    Your response seems to suggest that either there aren't words for such a concept in Hindi or if they do exist, then there might be a lack of familiarity with Hindi terms for such (due to usage of English terms)...

    My response suggests that there isn't these concepts in Arabic or Persian, too. "Murabba" is not the "jam", for god's sake! At the most, it is a type of jam or pickle: "jam" and "pickle" are generic words. You are translating "chaaval" to "crops" rather than "rice".
    By the way, I would advise you to include words in roman script as well when you include Hindi and Punjabi also in the thread title (or any other language not read in Urdu script), because otherwise the thread may be incomprehensible to many of your target readers.
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    greatbear said:
    One can translate "achaar" because pickles have existed in various cultures. One can't even translate "dahii" to yogurt, in fact, because "dahii" is a type of yogurt, the latter being generic while the former being specific.
    I guess this is where individual opinions would differ. For the first part about aachaar, this is what I was suggesting...that the basic concept could be similar across cultures, however, there will be differences if go into fine details. Certainly our Southeast Asian/Middle Eastern aachaar is not the same as a pickle you would find in a burger. However, both generally have the same underlying concept-putting a vegetable or fruit into a acidic solution. In my opinion, dahii has become the generic word for yogurt in Hindi/Urdu, which would then have subtypes like (desi, Yunaani, meeThaa, etc.). Similarly, murabbaa and all the other words listed above are generic words that could have subtypes...(again everyone might have different opinions)
    greatbear said:
    My response suggests that there isn't these concepts in Arabic or Persian, too. "Murabba" is not the "jam", for god's sake! At the most, it is a type of jam or pickle: "jam" and "pickle" are generic words. You are translating "chaaval" to "crops" rather than "rice".
    Again, this would depend on personal perceptions of words. Pasta can be made with various recipes and styles, but it is collectively called pasta with subtypes. Kabaabs are made in a variety of styles and are collectively referred to as kabaabs, but then have subtypes (seekh, chapli, Shaami, Iraani, Peshaawari, tikkaa-boTi, etc.) Pilaau made in Kaabul could be very different from that made in Lahaur, which could be very different from that made in Dilli/Dehli, which could be very different from that made in Dhaka....yet they would all generically be called Pilaau. The same goes for Biryaani, with Sindhi, Hyderaabaadi, Bombay, Malay Chicken.
    Similarly one perception of murabba could be vastly different from another person's murabba, but they would still both be called murabba; just as there could be different styles of jam, but all would be referred to by the generic term jam...
    By the way, I would advise you to include words in roman script as well when you include Hindi and Punjabi also in the thread title (or any other language not read in Urdu script), because otherwise the thread may be incomprehensible to many of your target readers.
    Sorry, I had transliterated the terms in OP but forgot to do so in my second post...
    Alfaaz said:
    Jelly: رب: seems to fit perfectly with the definition (that is, if the definition is correct and correctly understood be me): پکا کر گاڑھا کیا ہوا نیز جما ہوا عرق، نچوڑ یا رس۔
    Jelly: ruub; pakaa kar gaaRhaa kiyaa hua a'raq, nichoR yaa ras ; Platts:
    رب rubb, P. rub, s.m. Rob, thick expressed juice, inspissated juice (of any fruit), syrup, jelly:—rubbuʼs-sūs, s.m. Extract of liquorice.
    Alfaaz said:
    Jam: معجون : as mentioned above means "paste" : گوندھا ہوا، خمیر کیا ہوا، مرکب، باہم آمیختہ، ملا ہوا۔ , but seems like it could also be used for dough...
    gundhaa hua, xameer kiyaa huaa, murakkab, baaham aamextah, milaa huaa

    Alfaaz said:
    Also if کره is used for butter, would بادام روغن be almond oil?
    kurah; baadaam roGhan
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    Again, this would depend on personal perceptions of words. Pasta can be made with various recipes and styles, but it is collectively called pasta with subtypes. Kabaabs are made in a variety of styles and are collectively referred to as kabaabs, but then have subtypes (seekh, chapli, Shaami, Iraani, Peshaawari, tikkaa-boTi, etc.) ...
    Similarly one perception of murabba could be vastly different from another person's murabba, but they would still both be called murabba; just as there could be different styles of jam, but all would be referred to by the generic term jam...

    You are not getting my point: yes, pasta can be of different types, but you cannot translate spaghetti to pasta, because spaghetti is a type of pasta. In other words, the other types of pasta are not spaghetti. Similarly, chapati is a kind of bread, but to translate a chapati/phulkaa/roti as bread is highly misleading. Anyway, I have two questions for you here:

    1. Why are you insisting on jam for murabba and not pickle? Is murabba a jam or a pickle? Or, rather, avoiding both, would you just call it a (fruit) preserve?
    2. Would you call any jam as a murabba? Any jam available in the market? If no, you can't translate jam as murabba. If yes, you can. Choose your answer.
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    First let me clear the confusion of the three words:
    Jelly: this ........................................................................................................................rub
    Jam (paste/puree-like): this (isn't as clear, shiny, and unweildy like jelly)........................ma'juun (being specific about the consistency)
    Jam/Preserve (with fruit pieces) : this ..........................................................................murabbaa : another example
    Marmalade: this .........................................................................................................murabbaa-e-naarangi

    greabear said:
    1. Why are you insisting on jam for murabba and not pickle? Is murabba a jam or a pickle? Or, rather, avoiding both, would you just call it a (fruit) preserve?
    2. Would you call any jam as a murabba? Any jam available in the market? If no, you can't translate jam as murabba. If yes, you can. Choose your answer.

    1) Because as far as I know from experience of having eaten murabbayaat..(again I could be wrong on this due to not having enough exposure to varieties of murabbe)..they have an element of sweetness, not the sour/acidic flavor of a pickle or aachaar; therefore would define murabbaa as jam; yes it could also be called preserve
    2) As I have shown in the above pictorial examples, even the English "jam" can represent different types of jams (smooth ones and chunky ones) available in the market. In that case why can't murabbaa represent any jam...?

    Lastly Platts defintion of murabbaa, just in case anyone would be interested:
    مربَي murabbā (pass. part. of ربّي 'to preserve (with inspissated juice,' &c.), ii of ربو 'to increase,' &c.), s.m. Preserved fruit; a preserve, jam, conserve, confection:—murabbā ḍālnā (-meṅ), To preserve fruit (in syrup)
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Alfaaz, your opening post and following posts are perfectly sensible and there is no confusion whatsoever in the words used. Granted one can not always get exact equivalents from one language into another, so we have to make do with the nearest equivalents. We are not talking physics here where precision is of paramount importance. For all intents and purposes our "murabbaa" is the nearest equivalent to a "jam" whilst our "aachaar" is the closest we'd get to a "pickle". Now traditionally aachaars are made with mustard oil and I believe pickles with brine and vinegar but this does not mean that we can not call "aam kaa aachaar" mango-pickle.

    When the British were around in the Subcontinent, it is they who equated such terms. So, if the words have come from the "horse's mouth", where is the problem?
     
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    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    When the British were around in the Subcontinet, it is they who equated such terms. So, if the words have come from the "horse's mouth", where is the problem?

    The British also call chapati as Indian bread, but the same British would resent if I would call their bread as British chapati. The horse's mouth isn't that of the British, since it is not English that we are discussing. If a crêpe is called a crêpe and not a pancake, and yet a murabba be a jam, to my mind, it only reflects the remnant colonial mind-set of still many in the Indian subcontinent that they try to equate their murabbas with jams and the like.

    @Alfaaz - A pickle need not be sour. Read the wiki entry on murabba; also type "murabba + pickle" on Google and see for yourself the "translations".
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    greatbear said:
    and yet a murabba be a jam, to my mind, it only reflects the remnant colonial mind-set of still many in the Indian subcontinent that they try to equate their murabbas with jams and the like
    Going back to your response in the Indian food example: what is the word you would use to explain what a murabba is to an English speaker not familiar with the Urdu word or to explain to the Urdu speaker what a jam is who might not be familiar with the English term...? jam, perserve, and murabbaa...!? Just as someone would be trying to translate the concept of "powers that be/are" into Hindi or Urdu. I think I see what your trying to say, but why does it have to be viewed as "tying to equate our murabbas with their great jams", as if jams are superior to murabbaas? Is this not part of the same colonial mind-set? Why not "equating their jams with our splendid murabbas"...? Some might view using jam for murabbaa or murabbaa for jam as having an inferiority complex of some sort, while others could say that it is the "evolution and development of language" and "there is no need to be so rigid and blindly follow the exact dictionary/article definitions" for murabba to conclude that it cannot or should not be used for jam! I'll just use the phrase used around here "We can agree to disagree on this matter" as everyone has different opinions and I try to avoid getting into long debates on this forum! We can all use whatever words we desire for the delicious variety of food out there! :) Everyone's contribution (allowing for a different view of things) is appreciated!
    greatbear said:
    @Alfaaz - A pickle need not be sour. Read the wiki entry on murabba; also type "murabba + pickle" on Google and see for yourself the "translations".
    Thanks. Again, as we have discussed repeatedly: everyone can have different perceptions based on their environmental exposure.

     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The British also call chapati as Indian bread, but the same British would resent if I would call their bread as British chapati. The horse's mouth isn't that of the British, since it is not English that we are discussing. If a crêpe is called a crêpe and not a pancake, and yet a murabba be a jam, to my mind, it only reflects the remnant colonial mind-set of still many in the Indian subcontinent that they try to equate their murabbas with jams and the like.

    I thought all this conversation was taking place in English and "jam" and "pickle" are English words that are being linked (or unlinked) to "murabbaa" and "aachaar".

    Regarding the "colonial-mindset", it is probably best to keep this topic out of the current discussion.
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    I think I see what your trying to say, but why does it have to be viewed as "tying to equate our murabbas with their great jams", as if jams are superior to murabbaas? Is this not part of the same colonial mind-set? Why not "equating their jams with our splendid murabbas"...?

    And when did I say that jams are "great"? Stop imagining things, please. I am asking you to stop confusing the specific with the generic. But now repeatedly you have expressed your desire to keep doing so, well that's fine: I've said what I think on the issue and others have said what they think.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    And when did I say that jams are "great"? Stop imagining things, please. I am asking you to stop confusing the specific with the generic. But now repeatedly you have expressed your desire to keep doing so, well that's fine: I've said what I think on the issue and others have said what they think.
    I wouldn't want to drag this any longer either (like the threads which keep on going and going and going....and finally have to be closed by the moderators) and would like to end on a positive note!

    Thanks to everyone for their contributions! :)
     

    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    Really interesting! What is the origin of this word (Persian, French, Arabic...)? Before reading this sentence, I was reading the first sentence as something like "sphere of almond"...!]
    There are two words written کره : 'kare', with a zebar on the kaaf, means 'butter' and as far as I know is originally a Persian word, and 'kore', with a pesh on the kaaf, which comes from Arabic and means 'sphere/globe'.

    Also if کره is used for butter, would بادام روغن be almond oil?
    Close- remember that in Persian the word order is reversed, so we would say روغن بادام 'rowghan-e baadaam'.
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Putting the much ado about nothing to the side. Two things need to be taken into account that a) Urdu-phones differentiate between jams and preserves, the latter of which is specifically known as murabba. Thence, most Pakistani brands that deal in jams and preserves refer to the former as jams and the latter as murabba, given that the latter is prone to have larger chunks of fruit and a larger percentage quotient of the actual fruit as opposed to a jam. B) However, in Arabic, the term is used interchangeably for both jams and preserves, unless someone wants to dispute that. So whilst for Arabo-phones the distinction isn't deemed worthy of deliberation, in Urdu it does exist, as one is seen as an indigenous Middle-Eastern/Sub-continental creation and the other a foreign i.e. colonial import. More often than not when a murabba is translated as jam in the sub-continent it tends to be because individuals are ignorant of the term 'preserve; or do not quite understand its denotations. The fruit ratio in our traditional murabbe tends to be higher in comparison to their European counterparts with significant fruit chunks, thence why they would be categorised as preserves rather than jams. Btw what would the plural of murabba be murabbayaat or murabbajaat?
     
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