Persian, Urdu: -shaming, -shamed

Alfaaz

Senior Member
English
Background: relevant dictionary entries:

Shaming
...
NOUN
2. (often in combination)
the act or practice of attempting to embarrass a person or group by drawing attention to their perceived offence, esp on social media
fat shaming

Collins English Dictionary
-shaming

combines with nouns and adjectives to form nouns that refer to unkind criticism, especially on social media or in the press, of certain kinds of people for their appearance or behavior

Macmillan Dictionary
Mask shaming

criticizing or confronting someone who is not wearing a face covering
...
Mask shaming shows how quickly new behaviours can go from rare to common.

Macmillan Dictionary

Outline of potential translations/words/compounds:
  • shame - خجلت/خجَل، عار، شرم، شرمندگی، شرم ساری، وغیرہ
  • ashamed - مخجَّل
    • شرمندہ/شرم سار (کردہ/کیا ہوا)...؟
  • shamer - مخجِّل
    • شرمندہ کنندہ یا شرمندہ کار...؟
  • shaming - تخجیل (یا تعییر)
    • شرمندہ کاری...؟
  • _______-shaming - ?
    • Example sentence: Fat-shaming of a patient by a physician is completely unacceptable according to the rules of the hospital.
    • Potential Urdu translation: ہسپتال کے قوانین کے مطابق، معالج/معالجہ کی جانب سے مریض/مریضہ کی تخجیل بباعثِ شحامت بالکل ناقابلِ قبول ہے۔
  • _______-shamed - ?
Questions:
  • The Arabic-derived words from the root خجل have a clear pattern, but what suffixes could be used to form compounds based on شرم? Are any of the attempts (کار، کاری، وغیرہ) suitable?
  • What would be appropriate to use for -shaming and -shamed?
    • Would some sort of an اضافت have to be used (as in the attempted translation تخجیل بباعثِ شحامت - shaming due to corpulence), considering that compounds often aren't made in Persian and Urdu as they are in English (examples: Independence Day vs. یومِ آزادی - yaum-e-aazaadii - day of independence; _______ Minister vs. وزیر برائے; etc.)?
 
  • marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    • Suggestions:
      • Fat-shaming of a patient by a physician is completely unacceptable according to the rules of the hospital.
      • یہ کہ ایک ڈاکٹر اپنے مریضوں کو فربہ اندامی کے سبب شرمندہ کرے ہسپتال کے ضوابط کی رو سے نا قابل قبول ہے
      • مریض کو ڈاکٹر کے ہاتھوں موٹاپے کے باعث شرمندہ کرنا ہسپتال کے دستور العمل کی روشنی میں کلیةَ ناقابلِ قبول ہو گا
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    marrish said:
    Suggestions: ...
    Thanks for you contribution and suggestions. As you would already know, I'm aware of such indirect ways of conveying the idea. The purpose of making this thread (as well as others like this in the past) was to see if concise compounds can be formed on a pattern similar to English. Qureshpor SaaHib's thread Urdu-English: Vocabulary Building is a good example of such an initiative. (It is completely understandable that every language works in different ways and there is no intention of trying to change the traditional patterns. Such threads are usually meant to be fun/creative linguistic exercises.)
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Thanks for you contribution and suggestions.
    You are most welcome.
    As you would already know, I'm aware of such indirect ways of conveying the idea.
    No doubt you are, still there is an apparent reason for my choosing to offer different solutions than you did.

    Could you perhaps specify in what sense those sentences are in your understanding, conveying the idea indirectly?

    Could the interesting excerpt below which I ran across the other day turn to be of any assistance?

    " The Oordoo, or Hindustanee Language, is itself far from elegant, and though well adapted to Narrative and Conversation, is somewhat deficient in Precision, and requires much Circumlocution to render it a fit Medium for conveying those nice Distinctions of Meaning which pervade Works of such a highly artistic Character [...]

    " The Inelegance of the Language chiefly arises from the frequent Iterations of Particles, or relational Words, almost every Case requiring not only an Inflexion but its concomitant Postposition, the Changes being most frequently rung upon such barbarous Sounds as ka, ke, kee; and although, by a more frequent Use of Persian, many fo them might have been dispensed with, and although such a Use of that Foreign Language would have been perfectly legitimate, and my Task would thereby have been rendered very much easier, yet Hindustanee so constructed is understood only by the learned Classes, or by the highest Grades of Citizens, and is perfectly unintelligible to the Mass of the Population. Any one will be ready to confess this who has witnessed the not-uncomon Occurrence of a plain-spoken Farmer in the North-western Provinces, after giving his Deposition, and being called upon to acknowledge it as such when read out to hi by a learned Moonshee, expressing as much Astonishnment at its being called Hindustanee as the Gentleman in Moliere, which he found to his Surprise that the Language he had been speaking all his Life was Prose. (H.M. Elliot, Fort William, 12th Feb 1848)
     

    Babbagha2

    New Member
    Urdu
    " The Oordoo, or Hindustanee Language, is itself far from elegant, and though well adapted to Narrative and Conversation, is somewhat deficient in Precision, and requires much Circumlocution to render it a fit Medium for conveying those nice Distinctions of Meaning which pervade Works of such a highly artistic Character [...]

    " The Inelegance of the Language chiefly arises from the frequent Iterations of Particles, or relational Words, almost every Case requiring not only an Inflexion but its concomitant Postposition, the Changes being most frequently rung upon such barbarous Sounds as ka, ke, kee; and although, by a more frequent Use of Persian, many fo them might have been dispensed with, and although such a Use of that Foreign Language would have been perfectly legitimate, and my Task would thereby have been rendered very much easier, yet Hindustanee so constructed is understood only by the learned Classes, or by the highest Grades of Citizens, and is perfectly unintelligible to the Mass of the Population. Any one will be ready to confess this who has witnessed the not-uncomon Occurrence of a plain-spoken Farmer in the North-western Provinces, after giving his Deposition, and being called upon to acknowledge it as such when read out to hi by a learned Moonshee, expressing as much Astonishnment at its being called Hindustanee as the Gentleman in Moliere, which he found to his Surprise that the Language he had been speaking all his Life was Prose. (H.M. Elliot, Fort William, 12th Feb 1848)

    ما شاءاللہ یہ وہ روشن خیال اور ترقی یافتہ دماغ ہیں جنہوں نے ڈیڑھ سو سال تک ہمارے ملک پر بلا روک ٹوک کے حکومت کی۔ ہمارے دل و دماغوں پر راج کیا، ہم پس ماندگان کو تہذیب و تمدن سکھایا۔ خیر اس بات کو چھوڑیے جناب، اب دیکھنا یہ ہے کہ یہ زہر ہمارے خود کے رگوں میں کہیں سرایت تو نہیں کر گیا۔ کیا ہم بھی غیرشعوری طور پر اپنی زبان کے بارے میں اسی طرح کے نظریات تو نہیں پالتے؟
    مرش صاحب آپ کا یہ تیر تو عین نشانے پر لگ گیا ہے اب مزید بحث یا گفتگو کی گنجائش کہاں ؟ پر کیا کریں بحث کرنے والے بحث تو کریں گے ہی۔​
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    marrish said:
    No doubt you are, still there is an apparent reason for my choosing to offer different solutions than you did.

    Could you perhaps specify in what sense those sentences are in your understanding, conveying the idea indirectly?

    Could the interesting excerpt below which I ran across the other day turn to be of any assistance?
    By indirect, I meant that the suggestions you offered would be similar to رقم کرنا , rather than ترقیم.
    • Another example: نج کاری - privatization vs. نجی کرنا - to make private/to privatize | نجی کرنے کا عمل - the act/process of making private
    Taking the aforementioned examples into consideration might elucidate the thought process behind the attempts and questions in the opening post for you. If ترقیم and نج کاری are considered to be a part of Urdu, then the quotes you have presented don't seem to be relevant to the discussion here. There was neither inclusion of constructs and vocabulary foreign to Urdu, nor any objection to kaa/kii/ke.
    Babbagha2 said:
    ما شاءالله یہ وہ روشن خیال اور ترقی یافتہ دماغ ہیں جنہوں نے ڈیڑھ سو سال تک ہمارے ملک پر بلا روک ٹوک کے حکومت کی۔ ہمارے دل و دماغوں پر راج کیا، ہم پس ماندگان کو تہذیب و تمدن سکھایا۔ خیر اس بات کو چھوڑیے جناب، اب دیکھنا یہ ہے کہ یہ زہر ہمارے خود کے رگوں میں کہیں سرایت تو نہیں کر گیا۔ کیا ہم بھی غیرشعوری طور پر اپنی زبان کے بارے میں اسی طرح کے نظریات تو نہیں پالتے؟
    مرش صاحب آپ کا یہ تیر تو عین نشانے پر لگ گیا ہے اب مزید بحث یا گفتگو کی گنجائش کہاں ؟ پر کیا کریں بحث کرنے والے بحث تو کریں گے ہی۔​
    ببّغاء صاحب اور مرش صاحب: اپنی آراء پیش کر کے اس تھریڈ کو جلا بخشنے کے لیے بہت بہت شکریہ۔ بصد احترام، آپ کی آراء سے جزواً اتفاق اور جزواً اختلاف کیا جا سکتا ہے۔ آپ نے یہ تفصیل شامل نہیں کی کہ "زہر" سے آپ کی کیا مراد ہے۔

    کیا اس کا مطلب ہے کہ تجدید، ترقیم، ترمیم، تنقیح، تقطیر جیسے ڈھیروں الفاظ اور یومِ پیدائش، جواب دہی، وکلاء گردی، رہائش گاہ، جنم دن جیسے متعدد مرکبات کو خیرباد کہہ دینا چاہیے؟ کیا "نج کاری" کے بجائے "نجی کرنے کا عمل" ہی فقط مستعمل ہونا چاہیے، محض اس لیے کہ اوّل الذکر انگریزی طرز سے مماثلت رکھتا ہے؟ اگر نہیں، تو پھر "تخجیل" یا ممکنہ مرکبات (شرم کاری، وغیرہ) کے بارے میں پوچھنے میں کیا مضایقہ/قباحت ہے؟

    کیا ایسے عربی، فارسی، اور سنسکرت/کھڑی بولی پر مبنی مرکبات احساسِ کمتری اور زبان کی بربادی کے عکّاس ہیں یا زبان کی ترقّی، کثیر الجہتی، اور تخلیقی صلاحیت کے ترجمان؟ ویسے انگریزی زبان کے کئے الفاظ اردو میں مشمول ہیں اور ایک بڑا حصّہ (یعنی contribution) رکھتے ہیں۔ تاریخی/سیاسی اختلاف ایک طرف، لیکن اگر کسی اور زبان (جیسے انگریزی) میں کوئی خاصیت ہے تو اس کا اعتراف کرنے میں کیا ہرج ہے اور اردو میں اگر کوئی - کمزوری یا خامی نہ کہیں، فرق کہہ لیں - ہے تو اس کا ادراک کرنے میں کیا برائی؟ کیا ہم کئی بار اسی فورم میں اردو کی خصوصیات کا تذکرہ نہیں کر چکے جو کہ انگریزی میں موجود نہیں؟ اگر آپ قریش پور صاحب کی تھریڈ پڑھیں تو اس میں بھی کیا ملتے جلتے خیالات کا اظہار نہیں کیا گیا...؟

    اگر کوئی بھی بات ناگوار خاطر گذری ہو، تو معذرت۔

    There was certainly no intention of suggesting that one language is "far from elegant" or inferior in comparison to another.
     
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