Persian: Why isn't the /ye/ in /khaaneyeshaan/ written?

Haji Firouz

Member
Romanian
Hello,

We say /kabutarhaayemaan/ and write کبوترهایمان (our dove),
we say /khaaneyeshan/ and write خانه شان (their house). I was expecting خانه یشان or خانه ی شان.

My question is: why do we write the ی /ye/ in the first word, but in the second, we don't, if we pronounce it in both?

According to the transcripts I have found, we do pronounce the /ye/ in both words.

Is this a type error in the text?

Thank you.
 
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  • PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    'ye' is always written and pronounced when: the first word ends in a:
    long vowel like ا/aa and و/oo and the formal rule for this type is simple:
    کبوترهایمان/‏دستهایم ‏ (-yam & -yemân) or مویم/‏رویم ‏ (muyam, ruyam)

    silent h/é, the formal rule for these has been fluid:
    1 خانه ی شما This is the latest commendation
    2 خانه شما/خانه شان in this style 'ye' isn't explicitly pronounced but it is used formally
    3 خانۀ شما - this is not supposed to be used but you'll still see it

    خانه شان (their house)
    for this I would use these خانه ام خانه ات خانه اش خانه یمان خانه یتان خانه یشان
     
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    Haji Firouz

    Member
    Romanian
    Great, thank you so much, PersoLatin.

    روزی که درهای خانه شان نمیبندند

    /ruzi ke darhaayee khaneYE shaan nemibandand/

    This is again from Ahmad Shamlu's poem.

    The transcript was provided in the same site that exhibits the poem. I'm a bit confused between versions 1 and 2. So, the 1st one is recommended (written /ye/) - (why and in which case or context?), but the 2nd one is the formal variant.
    Is 1 formal or informal?

    Sorry, I seem to stumble upon these small details a lot lately, in the long term I figure it's beneficial to sort them out asap. If I don't stop and ponder about every detail... there is a big chance I adopt a wrong rule or wrong assumption, one that is hard to shake off later on when the automatism has been created.

    Later edit: I had forgotten the YE
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Hello,

    We say /kabutarhaayemaan/ and write کبوترهایمان (our dove),
    we say /khaaneyeshan/ and write خانه شان (their house). I was expecting خانه یشان or خانه ی شان.

    My question is: why do we write the ی /ye/ in the first word, but in the second, we don't, if we pronounce it in both?

    According to the transcripts I have found, we do pronounce the /ye/ in both words.

    Is this a type error in the text?

    Thank you.
    In theory, there should be no ی after the possessive pronoun suffixes. In the older language, they were۔۔۔

    -am/-amaan, -at/-ataan and -ash/-ashaan

    خانه was pronounced xaana, and with the suffix xaana-maan.

    Modern day pronunciation in Iran is xaane (or xuune, depending on how far you want to go!)

    So, xaane-ashaan > xaane-shaan without any ی intervention,

    The "problem", if I may call it as such, is that the modern pronuncitation sounds as if there is an izaafat there. Just look at the example @PersoLatin has provided, i.e kabutarhaayemaan کبوترھایمان which sounds as if it is کبوترھایِ مان .

    These suffixes in the modern language have become -am/-eman, -at/-etaan, -esh/-eshaan.
     

    Haji Firouz

    Member
    Romanian
    Hi Qureshpor,

    Modern day pronunciation in Iran is xaane (or xuune, depending on how far you want to go!)
    Natives are amused by my saying /xaane/ instead of /xune/ (which amazes me). I prefer to master the formal pronunciation though first for reasons of conversion:
    Convering /u/ from informal to formal can render either /aa/ or /u/, however
    Convering /aa/ from formal to informal always renders /u/.


    The "problem", if I may call it as such, is that the modern pronuncitation sounds as if there is an izaafat there. Just look at the example @PersoLatin has provided, i.e kabutarhaayemaan کبوترھایمان which sounds as if it is کبوترھایِ مان .
    I'll have to look this /izaafat/ up...
    I'm not sure I understand why there is a problem with this speeling: کبوترھایِ مان .

    Thanks a lot for your input as well! You guys are very helpful.
    Regards,
     
    We say /kabutarhaayemaan/ and write کبوترهایمان (our dove),
    we say /khaaneyeshan/ and write خانه شان (their house). I was expecting خانه یشان or خانه ی شان.
    Please note that the Possessive Pronouns is as, م، ت، ش، مان، تان، شان, So these are main pattern:
    کتابم
    کتابت
    کتابش
    کتابمان
    کتابتان
    کتابشان
    Or
    خانه ام
    خانه ات
    خانه اش
    خانه مان
    خانه تان
    خانه شان
    Possessive Pronouns م ، ت ، ش when want to use with a word with هin the end as خانه, there will be add a ا to it. م + ا + خانه
    As you see the above are based on کتاب( only single - a book),
    but what happen in plural کتاب ها
    کتاب هایم
    کتاب هایت
    کتاب هایش
    کتاب هایمان
    کتاب هایتان
    کتاب هایشان
    Please also note that ی is very important in the words, which cannot be pronounced. same as مان + ی +ها + کتاب in this word.
    in your examples you mixed up two kind of single and plural names. One is single and the other is plural.
     

    utopia62000

    Member
    Persian
    What I see in books and essays nowadays, most authors omit that ی. They simply write خانه شان when you talk about a singular noun. But in case of plural nouns, you need to maintain the ی and for instance, you write خانه هایشان.
     
    If your mother tongue is Farsi, you should know that the actual form is خانهء ایشان. We can not categorically deny correctness of using the ی or its omission.
    My mother language is Farsi, And my job was teaching Farsi as well. I think the best reference is Farsi grammar books to understand Possessive Pronouns , There is no need to be Persian.
    Now do you know how we use these kind of pronouns. Please do not refer to what you learn in your home, only with refer to grammar books. Please note that in grammar also you can find exactly خانه in most of books.
    Can you please help me, to know what is خانهء ایشان and how it has been made in grammar?
     

    utopia62000

    Member
    Persian
    My mother language is Farsi, And my job was teaching Farsi as well. I think the best reference is Farsi grammar books to understand Possessive Pronouns , There is no need to be Persian.
    Now do you know how we use these kind of pronouns. Please do not refer to what you learn in your home, only with refer to grammar books. Please note that in grammar also you can find exactly خانه in most of books.
    Can you please help me, to know what is خانهء ایشان and how it has been made in grammar?
    I feel, it is better someone else helps you.
    Good luck.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    In theory, there should be no ی after the possessive pronoun suffixes. In the older language, they were۔۔۔
    As has been said on many occasions, most pronunciations, at least under this topic, that are attributed to Indo/classical Persian, prevail in present day Iran, e.g. for خانه we have both xâné and xâna and with the latter you will hear xâna-ŝân as well as xâna-yaŝân.

    So modern Iranians at least, insert 'ye' as a glide to make pronunciations easier whether from Tehran or elsewhere, of course we really don't know how these were pronounced in classical Persian, but people use this 'ye' not for cosmetic reasons. We seem to accept گ in ستارگان or بچگان etc, without question and why, because the guys of classical Persian times assigned a letter for it, mainly because there was a letter for it in the pre-Arabic script, but no suitable letter was assigned for this 'ye' until ۀ was invented but that wasn't clear enough so an explicit ی was assigned to that job.
     
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    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    خانه ایشان is مضاف و مضاف الیه
    خانه شان is اسم و ضمیر ملکی متصل
    we are talking two different categories.
    I agree, what I was trying to say was that in Persian hamzé was/is never used this way: خانهء but only this way: خانۀ i.e. ۀ
     
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