Persian: yes

seitt

Senior Member
English/Welsh
Greetings,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but apart from the usual ‘بله’ you seem to have these four:
‘آره’
‘آری’
‘اره’
‘اری’

But which are Colloquial Persian and which are Literary Persian?

All the best, and many thanks,

Simon
 
  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Greetings,

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but apart from the usual ‘بله’ you seem to have these four:
    ‘آره’
    ‘آری’
    ‘اره’
    ‘اری’

    But which are Colloquial Persian and which are Literary Persian?

    All the best, and many thanks,

    Simon

    This is something that I also am interested in. Could someone please let me know pure Persian words for "yes" and "no". I believe "bale" is Arabic, is n't it?
     

    seitt

    Senior Member
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks - I think that بله and نه are pure Persian, but I am not sure about the first of them.

    آره is yeah (modern, slangy, rhymes with 'bear' the animal)
    آري is yea (antiquated, rhymes with 'play')
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Many thanks - I think that بله and نه are pure Persian, but I am not sure about the first of them.

    آره is yeah (modern, slangy, rhymes with 'bear' the animal)
    آري is yea (antiquated, rhymes with 'play')

    I think "bale" (originally balaa) is of Arabic extraction.
     

    searcher123

    Senior Member
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    Many thanks - I think that بله and نه are pure Persian, but I am not sure about the first of them.

    I think as you, but I'm not sure too. I send a email about it to a linguist. I'm waiting to receive his answer (I hope he have enough time to answer me).

    آره is yeah (modern, slangy, rhymes with 'bear' the animal)
    آري is yea (antiquated, rhymes with 'play')

    Thank you very much indeed, especially for آري in English.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I received the answer some day ago:

    بله and خير are Arabic, but آري and نه are Persian.

    I am curious as to how "Khair" (if Arabic) means "no". My Arabic dictionary does n't give this meaning of the word.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    As in let it go or laisses tomber, and a following generalization to all cases of no.

    But Khair essentially means "good" in Arabic. In Urdu, we use it with this meaning...

    Khair, aap kii marzii...

    achchhaa, aap kii marzii

    In Persian, one can say "no" by saing "Khair"/"na-Khair". I am just interested in this word's etymology. Could it be Persian and the Arabic "Khair" is purely co-incidental?
     

    seitt

    Senior Member
    English/Welsh
    My understanding is that خير is indeed the Arabic word in its usual meaning.

    It is the نه which means 'no', but as the word نه was felt to be too blunt and cold in polite society, a way was found of softening it by using a 'nice' word after it.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Can someone please confirm if آري for yes is definitely of Persian origins. If yes, how does it end up as آرہ? If not, what is the pure Persian word for "yes"?
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic, Persian
    آری was pronounced ārē (still is in Eastern Persian). When Western Persian lost یای مجهول , it became آره in the spoken language. Similar process with بلی ~ بله. I don't know how آره ended up as the informal word. I hope someone else can shed light on the etymology.

    By the way, in southern Iran, ها is prevalent as the informal "yes". A word probably familiar to subcontinentals!
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Many thanks, sorry, i don't understand what you mean by یای مجهول .
    Hi, sett, nice to speak to you after a long time.

    Here, I believe, we do not have a "majhuul" vowel phenomenon as such. I will offer my explanation once I have answered your question.

    Classical Persian had 2 "majhuul" vowels which are practically lost in the modern Iranian Persian but they still exist in Indian and Pakistani Persian, Afghan Persian and Tajik Persian.

    The vowel e. (represented by ے in the subcontinent and ی elsewhere) This is exactly equivalent to the vowel in the English word "bake" or when one pronounces "A" as in "A, B, C..."

    The vowel o. As in "go" (represented by و)

    Now to the second issue. Arabic بلٰی, لٰکن and perhaps other such words with a long "a" went through a transformation process in the Persian language known as "imaalah" which means "inclining towards". لٰکن became لیکن in Persian, the ی is majhuul, i.e lekin. بلٰی became "bale" and came to be written as بله.

    This is the reason why I asked if آری was Persian or not. Whatever its origins may be, it has "suffered" the same "imaalah" fate and ended up as آرہ.
     

    Derakhshan

    Senior Member
    Arabic, Persian
    Arabic بلٰی, لٰکن and perhaps other such words with a long "a" went through a transformation process in the Persian language known as "imaalah" which means "inclining towards".
    It is likely that the Arabs which were in contact with Persians during Abbasid times are the reason for this. The medieval Mesopotamian Arabic dialects (the ones Iranians were in contact with) had strong imaalah. They pronounced the ا the same way you pronounce ے in Urdu, so كتاب would be kitēb. When Persians wrote لٰکن as لیکن , they were just phonetically rendering this word the way they heard it from Arabs, since in Persian the ی could represent this vowel. This only happened in Arabic words with the long "a", that's why you don't find this happening in random Persian words with a long "a" sound. Those all kept a long "a". But in medieval Persian writings you will sometimes rarely encounter Arabic words like اسلام written as اسليم. It is because the Arabs who lived near Persians pronounced it that way, with a long "e".

    آری is not due to imaalah, since it is not an Arabic word. It was ārē, and in modern Iran became ārī, and through a colloquial transformation, āre.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Thank you Derakhshan. Your first paragraph. It does appear to be logical. I wonder if there are "majhuul" sounds in any of today's Arabic speech communities. It does seem rather illogical that Arabs spoke with majhuul vowels, yet they felt these vowels were "majhuul" in their own language and only existed in Persian.

    Second paragraph. Yes, it makes perfect sense.
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    About the vowel ‘o’, which sounds like the ‘o’ in the English ‘go’, it is actually still pronounced that way in certain instances around the central parts of Iran.

    Perhaps we could add cheraa (چِرا) to the list of words for ‘yes’. The word actually means ‘why’, but is also used as a word (or sentence) of affirmation
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    ^ Thank you Derakhshan. Your first paragraph. It does appear to be logical. I wonder if there are "majhuul" sounds in any of today's Arabic speech communities. It does seem rather illogical that Arabs spoke with majhuul vowels, yet they felt these vowels were "majhuul" in their own language and only existed in Persian.
    I thought in a related thread there was a consensus that Arabs called some Persian sounds "majhuul" or "unknown", (more likely the Persian scribes) because those sounds were unknown in Arabic.
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    Perhaps we could add cheraa (چِرا) to the list of words for ‘yes’. The word actually means ‘why’, but is also used as a word (or sentence) of affirmation
    Isn't چِرا used to mean 'yes' only when the question is asked in the negative form or a statement is made in a negative tone?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I thought in a related thread there was a consensus that Arabs called some Persian sounds "majhuul" or "unknown", (more likely the Persian scribes) because those sounds were unknown in Arabic.
    That is what I am alluding to in my response to Derakhshan Jaan.
     

    mannoushka

    Senior Member
    Iran/Persian
    Isn't چِرا used to mean 'yes' only when the question is asked in the negative form or a statement is made in a negative tone?
    Not exclusively. But it is true that in saying cheraa to mean ‘yes’, the speaker strongly rules out any statements contrary to what has been affirmed.
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Now to the second issue. Arabic بلٰی, لٰکن and perhaps other such words with a long "a" went through a transformation process in the Persian language known as "imaalah" which means "inclining towards". لٰکن became لیکن in Persian, the ی is majhuul, i.e lekin. بلٰی became "bale" and came to be written as بله.

    It seems "imaalah" was present in Arabic dialects themselves, like Derakhshan explained, just not in the standard formal Arabic of the grammarians. There is another interesting tidbid - alif maqsuurah evolved from etymological -ay, and apparently some Quranic qiraa'aat still pronounce it more or less consistently as a long -ē.
     
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