1. Bodhisattva

    Bodhisattva Senior Member

    France
    France - French
    Hi,
    How would you translate "pervers narcissique" in English?
    I tried "narcissistic pervert", however UK people seem to get it, but US people not.
    Would "psychopath" work? I don't seem to find any medical references about this...

    Thanks for your kind help.
    S.
     
  2. timboleicester

    timboleicester Senior Member

    Paris
    English - UK
    I don't see, for the life of me, what else you could in fact translate it as....whether people get it or not is another matter.
     
  3. Jasmine tea

    Jasmine tea Senior Member

    Corsica, France
    French - France
    "Pervers narcissique" has a specific meaning. The concept comes from Marie-France Hirigoyen's work and theories developed around "Le Harcèlement Moral". Her books are translated in more than 30 languages and laws have been enforced in a number of countries (apart from France) to prevent this Harcèlement Moral (in professional contexts for example).
    So there must be an English equivalent. I don't think "psycopath" is the right word...
     
  4. timboleicester

    timboleicester Senior Member

    Paris
    English - UK
    "narcissistic pervert" is certainly is present in "google" land
     
  5. Prima Facie

    Prima Facie Senior Member

    Riojana de pura cepa.
    Spain-Spanish
    Psycopath would not match. A psycopath may be narcissistic, but not all narcissistics are (fortunately) psycopaths...
     
  6. Omelette

    Omelette Senior Member

    London
    UK English
    There's an article in The Observer (UK newspaper) which quotes Hirigoyen's book and uses the term 'narcissistic pervert.' (and I don't really understand why it should be understood in the UK and baffle people in the US)
     
  7. Bodhisattva

    Bodhisattva Senior Member

    France
    France - French
    Thank you All for your kind help.
    And I found (after much more research) the following:
    In the context of definitions listed in DSM IV and in French and European psychology, this trouble is often classified as a type of narcissism with a pervert tendency.
    The first characteristics are therefore narcissism: the over-estimation of oneself, of one's capacities, the feeling of being unique, the need to be recognized as exceptionnel and bad reactions to criticism.

    Thanks so much!
     
  8. aherimatek

    aherimatek New Member

    Salusa Secundus
    anglais - Del Rey
    The reason the term is unfamiliar to people in the US as opposed to the UK may just be due to this mental condition being more regarded in the US as a normal personality to emulate, akin to the notion of rugged individualism, which is itself a sort of euphemism for "narcissistic pervert".
     
  9. Maeldan

    Maeldan Member

    France
    French, France
    Really ? Just my two cents, but narcissistic perversion refers to a pathological personnality, so how could this be regarded as a normal personality ?

    By the way, recent studies suggested that narcissistic perversion be classified in the psychopathic personality category.

    In fact, it is a form of perversion with a narcissistic aspect where the subject uses and manipulates others as if they were mere objects just to fill their own pathlogical needs. Such people are devoid of any form of feeling towards others, their goal is to destroy others' self-esteem and personalities, and in their most extreme expression can cause people to commit suicide.

    I surely wouldn't define this as a normal personality, even by US standards... :eek:
     
  10. preciouspuppy

    preciouspuppy Senior Member

     
  11. preciouspuppy

    preciouspuppy Senior Member

  12. Kelly B

    Kelly B Senior Member

    USA English
    I find it very odd that Bodhisattva thought American English speakers didn't/wouldn't understand narcissistic pervert, and odder still that someone else thought we'd consider it normal behavior. :eek:
    That said, I'd have suggested perverse narcissist instead. I don't know whether one is preferred over the other. So to speak.
     
  13. preciouspuppy

    preciouspuppy Senior Member

    I don't find it odd, because the word "pervert" is so often associated with sexual perversion here.
     
  14. Bodhisattva

    Bodhisattva Senior Member

    France
    France - French
    yes it is a pathology and not a "normal personality" and as Maeldan says it is close to a psychopath.

    Kelly B, I have never found the term used as is. In France the term "pervers narcissique" means something very specific and can be used in a psychology setting.
    There are even definitions for it.
    In the english language though it is not translated as a single word or term. It has to be explained further.
    Maybe "perverse narcissist" work, but usually, in english, perversion means sexual perversion and this is not what is meant in "pervers narcissique".
    I hope this clarifies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  15. jodi-marie New Member

    English
    In the US, we refer to the disorder, which is Narcissistic Personality Disorder. You can call the person a Narcissist, which doesn't necessarily get at it. I would say "a pathological narcissist," or "someone with NPD." You can shorten it to "the Narcissist" when the context is already known. It's true that in the US relatively high levels of narcissism can be culturally encouraged, so just using the term "narcissist" doesn't get at the pathology. The personality disorder is not encouraged, but it's also not widely understood. Pervert almost invariably has sexual connotations in the US.
     
  16. Bodhisattva

    Bodhisattva Senior Member

    France
    France - French
    Thanks Jodi-Marie.
     
  17. jodi-marie New Member

    English
    Perhaps a day late and a dollar short, but of course!
     
  18. Topsie

    Topsie Senior Member

    Avignon, France
    English-UK
    • A Narcissistic Sociopath :eek: is someone with a combination of narcissistic personality disorder and definitive behavioral signs of sociopathy.
    • People with narcissism are characterized by their excessive and persistent need for others’ admiration and positive reinforcement. They generally have grandiose opinions of themselves and believe they are superior to other people. Narcissists are also frequently convinced that they are above the normal responsibilities and obligations of everyday life, so they usually have significant difficulties maintaining employment or relationships as a result.
    • The narcissistic sociopath has this type of personality along with a noticeable lack of regard for the rights of others and a tendency to regularly violate those rights.

    source
     
  19. jodi-marie New Member

    English
    That being said, narcissistic sociopath would be an inappropriate translation of pervers narcissique. All sociopaths are narcissists. It's one of the some 17 symptoms of psychopathology. And as someone mentioned earlier, not all narcissists are sociopaths, although that doesn't prevent them from leaving loads of wreckage behind them.
     
  20. preciouspuppy

    preciouspuppy Senior Member

    Thanks, all. So I am thinkingthat the translation for American English is someone with Antisocial Personality disorder as described in DSM-IV-TR. A person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder will hurt your feelings, but the person with sociopathy/antisocial personality will go further. The translation for British English might be Narcissistic sociopath (thanks, Topsie).
    The translation problem seems to stem from the fact that the term comes from an author (thank you, jasminetea) rather than from an official manual.
     
  21. hannahrobertsbrockow New Member

    English - North America
    As a professional translator, my vote goes to Antisocial or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. In this article from L'Express, the term is used interchangeably with sociopath. This is one of those cases where it might be worthwhile to consult mental health professionals who are native speakers of the source and target languages.
    http://www.lexpress.fr/styles/psych...teur-destructeur_1492620.html?xtor= EPR-5013-
     
  22. Sarah Tissot

    Sarah Tissot Senior Member

    El Paso, Texas, USA
    Switzerland, French / Suisse romand :)
    What's with all the U.S. bashing here (ahem...aherimatek)? We're on this forum to promote knowledge and information, not to perpetuate clichés, and generalize one type of behavior/criteria to billions of people in one country, are we? There are educated and ignorant, generous and self-centered people in every single country that I have had the privilege to know...
    To come back to the topic/question at hand, Boddhisattva, do you have a context/article to go with the expression you are translating? I am asking because "pervert" could mean different things depending on the pervesion or the personality disorder at hand, so it would help to have a context or more details, IF (only if) you feel that "narcissistic pervert" is not good enough of a translation, then you may need to elaborate on the details or specificity of the disorder to be able to have a translation that you feel is closer to the original. "
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
  23. Michelvar

    Michelvar quasimodo

    Marseille - France
    French from France
    See here for what French people call a "pervert narcissique" :
    (the red is mine)

    So, in French, it's a lot about manipulation and mental harassment.
     
  24. guillaumedemanzac

    guillaumedemanzac Senior Member

    Aquitaine
    English - Southern England Home Counties
    Not being a psychologist, my grammar point would be that in English a pervert is a person with weird sexual tendencies. But a perversion can be moral or sexual. The context does not clarify whether "pervers" is a person (pervert) or a type of behaviour (perversion).
     
  25. hannahrobertsbrockow New Member

    English - North America
    I don't think a sexual innuendo is really present in "pervers narcissique." "Pervers" in this instance means "perverse" or "depraved." "Un perverti" seems to be more frequently used to denote a sexual pervert in French.
     
  26. guillaumedemanzac

    guillaumedemanzac Senior Member

    Aquitaine
    English - Southern England Home Counties
    Two adjectives together ?????? perverse narcissistic .. . what? behaviour is the noun that should follow.
     
  27. AmaryllisBunny

    AmaryllisBunny Senior Member

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