Por siempre, Para siempre

RussUS

Senior Member
English, United States
Admitting that after years of study of Spanish, I still don't truly feel the por and para distinction, I present this question.

There is a song titled the subject line, "Por siempre, Para siempre." I have asked my Spanish speaking friends to explain to me exactly what this means, to no avail. Can anybody help with this?

Thanks.
 
  • RussUS

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    Thank you Whisky.

    The song is one of love, rather than spiritual, however "forever and ever" still fits. (..or maybe you're one of those good folks who demonstrate their "gifts of the spirit" by saying hallelujah at times? That would be a good thing.)

    I'm interested additionally in an explanation of the use of both por and para, how the native speaker would select both, and the specific grammatical meaning and distinction.

    Thank you again
     

    Whisky con ron

    Senior Member
    Venezuela / Español
    The "hallelujah, hallelujah" was a reference to Handel's Messiah.... Sorry. Those are just the words (king of kings.... for ever, and ever, hallelujah, hallelujak, and lord of lords..... for ever, and ever, hallelujah, hallelujak... etc).

    Como "nativa" se me hace complicado explicarte cuando se usa "por" y cuando "para" sin un ejemplo. Pero estoy segura de que si haces una búsqueda en internet puedes conseguir las reglas gramaticales. Si tienes una duda puedes consultar en este foro.

    Oh!... si haces una búsqueda de "por" y "para" en el diccionario de la real academia, puedes ver una lista de casos donde se usa "por" y "para". Quizás eso te sirva.

    Saludos
     

    RussUS

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    Yes, I am very familiar with Handel's Messiah and was aware of why you put the "Hallelujah's." You never have to say "sorry" to me for referring to that wonderful song of praise and thanksgiving.

    My difficulty, Whisky, is, as I said I have studied Spanish for many years and have read the rules for por and para many, many times.

    My point was that applying those rules to native speech is difficult for non-natives and this is an example of a usage that I cannot understand by applying the rules. That is what I intended to mean by saying I don't "have the feel,"--i.e. I don't feel the correctness and full meaning of this phrase, even though I can be told it means forever and ever.

    A non-grammar question: "Doesn't mixing whisky and rum make for a powerful and unpredictable drink?"

    Thank you Whisky
     

    Edwin

    Senior Member
    USA / Native Language: English
    Hola Whisky, la pregunta se trata de la diferencia entre las frases: ''por siempre'' y ''para siempre''. No les está preguntando todas diferencias entre ''por'' y ''para''.

    El bueno DRAE dice:

    A. para siempre.
    loc. adv. Por todo tiempo o por tiempo indefinido. Me voy para siempre

    B. por siempre.
    loc. adv. Perpetuamente o por tiempo sin fin. Por siempre sea alabado y bendito

    Trato de traducirlas:

    A. For all time or for an indefinite time.

    B. Perpetually or for a time without end.

    ¿Entonces qué quiere decir eso?

    Además ¿qué significa perpetuamente?

    perpetuamente.

    1. adv. m. Perdurablemente, para siempre.

    perdurablemente.

    1. adv. m. Eternamente, perennemente, sin fin.

    ¿Alguien quiere seguir la cadena? --más bien, el árbol de acepciones.
     

    Edwin

    Senior Member
    USA / Native Language: English
    Lo siento, Whisky. Ahora veo que sí había una cuestión sobre por y para en general.

    I'm interested additionally in an explanation of the use of both por and para, how the native speaker would select both, and the specific grammatical meaning and distinction.

    Acabo de comprar un libro con título Spanish Verbs: Ser and Estar por Juan y Susan Serrano. Creo que alguien podría vender muchos libros a los estudiantes de castellano con el título: Todo lo que Tienes que Saber sobre Por y Para. o quizás sea Por y Para for Dummies.

    Yo lo compraría.
     

    charmedboi82

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Edwin said:
    Lo siento, Whisky. Ahora veo que sí había una cuestión sobre por y para en general.



    Acabo de comprar un libro con título Spanish Verbs: Ser and Estar por Juan y Susan Serrano. Creo que alguien podría vender muchos libros a los estudiantes de castellano con el título: Todo lo que Tienes que Saber sobre Por y Para. o quizás sea Por y Para for Dummies.

    Yo lo compraría.

    Creo que se iba referiendo al uso de 'por' y 'para' en este contexto. No estoy muy seguro si tengo la diferencia bien fija en la mente pero creo que asi funciona:

    por siempre: always
    para siempre: forever

    Bueno, me parece que depende de como los usan pero creo que 'por siempre' tiende a usarse cuando hay mas cercania al pasado, algo que estaba en el pasado y sigue asi (algo fijo que ha sido lo que sea por ti y lo sigue siendo). 'Para siempre' me parece un poco lo contrario, se usa mas cuando quieres enfocar en el futuro. Me parece que los dos se pueden usar para referir al futuro dado que con 'por siempre' se habla de una cosa que no cambia (ni en el futuro). Por lo tanto, no veo tanta distincion en las frases en la mayoria de los casos. 'Por y para siempre' me parece una manera enfatica de decirlo.

    Espero que esto te sirva asi que los demas parecen andar en circulos. Tal vez otro venga para decirnos otra/la diferencia.
     

    Edwin

    Senior Member
    USA / Native Language: English
    charmedboi82 said:
    No estoy muy seguro si tengo la diferencia bien fija en la mente pero creo que asi funciona:

    por siempre: always
    para siempre: forever


    No sé en cuanto a ''siempre'', ''por siempre'' y ''para siempre'', pero creo que hay un poco de diferencia entre ''always'' y ''forever''. Por ejemplo, diría

    A. I always eat at Sam's on Saturdays. :tick:

    Pero nunca diría

    B. I forever eat at Sam's on Saturdays. :cross:

    ¿Hispanoparlantes, puedes traducirlas así?

    A. Por siempre como en Sam's los sábados.
    B. Para siempre como en Sam's los sábados.

    ¿Y se puede intercambiar por y para en las dos oraciones sin cambiar el sentido?
     

    funnydeal

    Senior Member
    Mexico / Español
    Edwin said:
    No sé en cuanto a ''siempre'', ''por siempre'' y ''para siempre'', pero creo que hay un poco de diferencia entre ''always'' y ''forever''. Por ejemplo, diría

    A. I always eat at Sam's on Saturdays. :tick:

    Pero nunca diría

    B. I forever eat at Sam's on Saturdays. :cross:

    ¿Hispanoparlantes, puedes traducirlas así?

    A. Por siempre como en Sam's los sábados.
    B. Para siempre como en Sam's los sábados.

    ¿Y se puede intercambiar por y para en las dos oraciones sin cambiar el sentido?


    A. Por siempre como en Sam's los sábados. :cross:

    B. Para siempre como en Sam's los sábados. :cross:



    La traducción literal es: Siempre como en Sam's los sábados

    No me parece correcto el uso de "siempre" con "los sábados", yo diría "Todos los sabádos como en Sam's"

    Regreso al rato con una teoría lógica de "por siempre" y "para siempre"
     

    charmedboi82

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Edwin said:
    No sé en cuanto a ''siempre'', ''por siempre'' y ''para siempre'', pero creo que hay un poco de diferencia entre ''always'' y ''forever''. Por ejemplo, diría

    A. I always eat at Sam's on Saturdays. :tick:

    Pero nunca diría

    B. I forever eat at Sam's on Saturdays. :cross:

    ¿Hispanoparlantes, puedes traducirlas así?

    A. Por siempre como en Sam's los sábados.
    B. Para siempre como en Sam's los sábados.

    ¿Y se puede intercambiar por y para en las dos oraciones sin cambiar el sentido?

    Pero tambien hay una diferencia entre 'siempre' y 'por/para siempre'. Junte 'por' y 'para siempre' porque son parecidos en cuanto a su relacion con 'siempre'. Nada es tan literal.
     

    delphos

    Member
    Mexico / Español
    RussUS said:
    Admitting that after years of study of Spanish, I still don't truly feel the por and para distinction, I present this question.

    There is a song titled the subject line, "Por siempre, Para siempre." I have asked my Spanish speaking friends to explain to me exactly what this means, to no avail. Can anybody help with this?

    Thanks.

    In my understanding, both phrases mean basically the same. So, these are only two ways to say the same: "forever".
     
    "Por siempre" is more LITERARY (formal, poetic, written, etc.), thus it is used for describing more eternal and historical things, as well as things that are ALREADY DONE (i.e. eras that ARE ALREADY done, such as the forever extinction of dinosaurs). Also, it is used to indicate from ANY MOMENT (i.e. then, now, at that moment, etc.) IN ADVANCE.

    "Para siempre" is more COLLOQUIAL (speech, common, slang, etc.), thus it is used for describing more current and everyday things and things that are NOT ALREADY DONE (i.e. events that ARE NOT ALREADY done, such as forever partying). Also, it is used to indicate from THIS MOMENT (i.e. now, at this moment, etc.) IN ADVANCE.

    I hope I finally helped you clear those two out, since that explanation consisting of three uses for each one, helped clear my confusion out. :)
     
    Last edited:

    RussUS

    Senior Member
    English, United States
    "Por siempre" is more LITERARY (formal, poetic, written, etc.), thus it is used for describing more eternal and historical things, as well as things that are ALREADY DONE (i.e. eras that ARE ALREADY done, such as the forever extinction of dinosaurs). Also, it is used to indicate from ANY MOMENT (i.e. then, now, at that moment, etc.) IN ADVANCE.

    "Para siempre" is more COLLOQUIAL (speech, common, slang, etc.), thus it is used for describing more current and everyday things and things that are NOT ALREADY DONE (i.e. events that ARE NOT ALREADY done, such as forever partying). Also, it is used to indicate from THIS MOMENT (i.e. now, at this moment, etc.) IN ADVANCE.

    I hope I finally helped you clear those two out, since that explanation consisting of three uses for each one, helped clear my confusion out. :)

    Yes, this makes perfect sense to me. Even to the degree that one would describe their love for another using both to make the distinction between "already done" and "to do from this moment forward."

    Thank you very much.
     

    Joe L.

    New Member
    English
    Admitting that after years of study of Spanish, I still don't truly feel the por and para distinction, I present this question.

    There is a song titled the subject line, "Por siempre, Para siempre." I have asked my Spanish speaking friends to explain to me exactly what this means, to no avail. Can anybody help with this? Thanks
    ANSWERING ON 12/19/2016: I just came upon your question. You said you had heard the following in a Spanish song: "Por siempre, para siempre," and you were wondering what it really means. In fact, I presume you're referring to Demis Roussos' 1973 "POR SIEMPRE Y PARA SIEMPRE" song. The "Y" sounds better and more poetic than the COMMA, of course. Well, let's take the English-language usage of "for ever." That would mean "for always," or "for all time," etc. Then, why (in English) would we say "for ever and ever," when merely "for ever" or "forever" could be "sufficient"; while "...and ever" could be considered "redundant"? However, in fact, it's not redundant; it's added for EMPHASIS. So, the Spanish "por siempre" means "for ever." But "por siempre y para siempre," is said for emphasis, as well as phonetics...in order NOT to repeat "por" (or "para") in the same, short title of a/the song. Both "por siempre" and "para siempre," therefore, mean "for ever," or "forever," or "for always," etc. And, the reason for the repetition is for greater effect or impact. I hope this answers your original question with clarity and finality. If my answer is in any way confusing, please don't hesitate to let me know. Thank you.
     
    Top