Portugal = orange

Abbassupreme

Senior Member
United States, English, Persian
Let me remind that in Iranian Persian, words for Portugal and orange are identical in pronunciation (homophone) although they usually differ in writing (they are sometimes written identically): orange (پرتقال), Portugal (پرتغال). Both are pronounced porteqâl. nârenj is sour orange for us but in Eastern Persian it means orange.

Nârenj? Wait . . . . what's nârengi, then? Because I SWEAR I've heard it. And one of my old Persian teachers (Samineh Bâghchebân, her father apparently opened the first school for mute children in Iran and she's apparently famous over there) had taught me that "qâf" and "gheyn" are pronounced differently. Now, granted, my cousins in Iran weren't even AWARE that gheyn and qâf were pronounced differently, but I've always pronounced them as distinct sounds (gheyn sounding like the French/German "r" and qâf, well, being a very gutteral "k" sound). Dari-speakers, however, apparently distinguish between the two sounds whereas Iranian Persian speakers aren't technically supposed to. I dunno . . . . I guess one COULD pronounce them as distinct sounds, if they wanted to?
 
  • jugen

    Senior Member
    English USA
    Now here's an interesting explanation for the Chinese word for Portugal, written by a Portuguese traveler in a piece about Pingyao: "I remember the colour that paints the Portuguese mouths after a good and strong red wine bowl." As everyone knows, red wine (we're talking Port here) stains the teeth (just ask my dentist!).
    Cheers,
    JuGen
     

    Alijsh

    Senior Member
    Persian - Iran
    one of my old Persian teachers (Samineh Bâghchebân, her father apparently opened the first school for mute children in Iran and she's apparently famous over there) had taught me that "qâf" and "gheyn" are pronounced differently. Now, granted, my cousins in Iran weren't even AWARE that gheyn and qâf were pronounced differently, but I've always pronounced them as distinct sounds (gheyn sounding like the French/German "r" and qâf, well, being a very gutteral "k" sound). Dari-speakers, however, apparently distinguish between the two sounds whereas Iranian Persian speakers aren't technically supposed to. I dunno . . . . I guess one COULD pronounce them as distinct sounds, if they wanted to?
    Yes, Jabbâr Bâghchebân is very famous. We pronounce غ and ق identically but of course there are dialects in which they're pronounced differently. For more information, please read the text at the bottom of this table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_phonology#Chart_2

    So we pronounce both پرتقال and پرتغال the same but in some other dialects it's no so.
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    I once heard that the word "portugal" meant "orange" in several languages around the Mediterranean, and I'd like to see if this is true. My question has three parts:

    1) Does your language have a common noun "portugal", or very similar to it?

    2) If so, does this word mean "orange", or some other fruit?

    3) If the answers to 1) and 2) are "yes", could you tell me the etymology of that noun?

    Thank you very much.
    Hello!

    I can't remember any fruit that sounds like Portugal in Indonesia, yet one interesting thing about Portugal in Indonesian is that it is the only country which has two variations in Indonesian:
    Portugis and Portugal

    In Indonesian, we don't have a special form for adjectives.
    So:
    England = Inggris
    English (language) = Bahasa Inggris
    English(wo)man = Orang Inggris

    Bahasa = language
    Orang = person

    Spain = Spanyol
    Spanish (language) = Bahasa Spanyol
    Spaniard = Orang Spanyol

    In the case of Portugal:
    Portugal = Portugis or Portugal
    Portuguese (language) = Bahasa Portugis or Bahasa Portugal
    Portuguese (person) = Orang Portugis or Orang Portugal

    Salam,


    MarX
     

    fazulas

    Senior Member
    Galician
    Yep, no quilts here. But overall I enjoyed a lot nigelofk's entry :) Just to add that Galician and Portuguese also have the "Persian" name for peach ("pexego, pêssego", from the old name for Persian, "pérsigo", "pérsico"), but curiously not Spanish ("melocotón").
     

    fazulas

    Senior Member
    Galician
    Very interesting, I didn't know that name. Well, it sounds both very Castilian and very Arabic to me, which maybe explains why I hadn't heard it... Thanks!
     

    Spiritoso78

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Actually as far as I know in italian we when we talk about Portugal we only refer to the state itself, that is IL PORTOGALLO.

    But regarding the fruit, to indicate the a a type of small orange, we get used to calling it MANDARINO...just like one of the two official languages spoken in China (Mandarine and Cantonese).

    Ciao
     

    Lugubert

    Senior Member
    Orange(fruit) in Mandarin is 桔子 or 橙子. They are different actually, but both of them are called orange in English.

    桔子 (júzi) is sometimes translated tangerine.
    橙子 (chéngzi) seems to be dictionaries´ first choice for orange.

    Maybe lingon's (post 23) "Zhi shi" partly comes from a confusion with 汁 (zhī) juice?
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    I know this is an old thread, but:

    The only difference between the two is that Portugal has a definite article and we use a غ [usually transliterated as "gh," this is the French and German "r"] instead of a ق [usually transliterated as "q," this is a guttural "k" sound] for Portugal.

    Let me remind that in Iranian Persian, words for Portugal and orange are identical in pronunciation (homophone) although they usually differ in writing (they are sometimes written identically): orange (پرتقال), Portugal (پرتغال). Both are pronounced porteqâl.

    I find the غ/ق difference especially interesting.

    Yes, I find it very interesting too; especially if you note that in southern Iraq, Kuwait and some other Gulf states they use the qaaf and ghain interchangeably although they pronounce them differently. As an example, you may hear the word qash قش (straw) pronounced as ghash غَش also and you may hear maghrib مغرب (dusk/sunset) pronounced as maqrib مقرب in that region.

    It's also worth noting that in many Arabic dialects the letter qaaf is pronounced gaaf.

    I don't know the relevance, but this strange link between g/q/gh is very interesting in my opinion.
     

    arsham

    Senior Member
    Persian
    I know this is an old thread, but:

    Yes, I find it very interesting too; especially if you note that in southern Iraq, Kuwait and some other Gulf states they use the qaaf and ghain interchangeably although they pronounce them differently. As an example, you may hear the word qash قش (straw) pronounced as ghash غَش also and you may hear maghrib مغرب (dusk/sunset) pronounced as maqrib مقرب in that region.

    It's also worth noting that in many Arabic dialects the letter qaaf is pronounced gaaf.

    I don't know the relevance, but this strange link between g/q/gh is very interesting in my opinion.

    In Persian there's only غش ghash meaning faint!
     

    Pacalito

    Senior Member
    italian
    Hi,
    I'm from Italy and in Italian there is no common noun similar to "portugal". But in the region I live (near Brescia, in northern Italy) I have heard the word "portugai" referring to some kind of fruits, from people speaking dialect. Unfortunately I don't remember which fruit they were talking about. I can make a supposition: probably not oranges because they do not grow at my latitude. But I am not sure about that, because I don't know another word for "oranges" in my dialect.


    Hi,

    in my region (Calabria) in the south of Italy, we use the word "purtuàllu" to call the fruit, but only in our dialect.
     

    fazulas

    Senior Member
    Galician
    Hi,

    This is a picture that I took in the island of Büyükada, one of the so-called Princes' Islands off Istanbul. I must say that I didn't try the cakes, but I guess they must be orange-flavoured!
     

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    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I'm afraid I don't see the connection between the etymology of "Portugal" and the fact that this word is itself the etymon of various words meaning "orange". The two things seem quite unrelated to me.
     

    yaofeng

    New Member
    Chinese
    Interesting. Apparently no one from the Caribbean or Trinidad to be specific has visited this forum. I was in Trinidad last December. It was my first visit during the start of the winter season to the island. In Trinidad there is a type of orange they call Portugal. The orange is very much like Clementines from Spain and north Africa. (perhaps Portugal too?) I've never heard it being called that before.
     

    ElFrikiChino

    Senior Member
    Italian (Mantova)
    First of all, I didn't read all the answers to the thread, because they're countless, sorry if somebody already posted something like this.

    Hi,
    I'm from Italy and in Italian there is no common noun similar to "portugal". But in the region I live (near Brescia, in northern Italy) I have heard the word "portugai" referring to some kind of fruits, from people speaking dialect. Unfortunately I don't remember which fruit they were talking about. I can make a supposition: probably not oranges because they do not grow at my latitude. But I am not sure about that, because I don't know another word for "oranges" in my dialect.

    I'm from the same region, but a different town. And we indeed use "partügàl" to refer to an orange, when speaking in dialect. I have no idea where it comes from, and always wondered. Cosidered the history of North Italy, I guess some Latin together with some French (and maybe some Spanish too).
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Portugal" cames from the two-word name "Portus Cale" (Warm Port).
    O nome de Portugal é certo que vem de Portum Calem, pero isto não significa 'porto quente', Calem esta relacionado com um endónimo céltico que esta presente en Callaecia/Gallaecia, Galia, gálata, Calcedonia e outro endónimos que agora não lembro todos de povos célticos, e na mesma palavra Celticus, celta duma raíz cal-/gal-/cel-
     

    dj_sunflower18

    New Member
    Trinidad and Tobago, English
    I am from Trinidad and Tobago, and in our country, we use the word 'portugal' for another kind of citrus, but not oranges. I did some digging, and found out that the fruit we actually call portugals are scientifically known as clementines. I have never heard the word 'clementine' until now, because everyone here knows it as 'portugal', lol. Oranges, however, are called oranges, and limes and lemons maintain their name. I have no idea how we came to use the name portugal for clementines.
     
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    ...
    Greek: Portokáli, chrisomilia
    ...

    Please correct me where I'm wrong.
    Πορτοκάλι (porto'kali, n.) is indeed the name for the fruit (orange) from the medieval times; it derives from the medieval «Πορτοκάλ(λ)ιον» (porto'kalion, n.).
    According to the "Portal for the Greek Language" it is a loan word, probably from an Italian dialect (please remember that many parts of Greece were under Venetian domination and influence for a couple of centuries): "...ίσως από νότ. διάλ. portocallo "πορτοκάλι", πληθ. portocalli..." (translation: "perhaps from s. it. dial. portocallo "πορτοκάλι", plural portocalli").
    In earlier times the name of the fruit was «χρυσόμηλον» (xrū'sŏmēlŏn, xri'somilo in modern Greek, n.-->golden apple) which is either a verbatim translation of the Latin Pomum aurantium or vice versa.
    «Χρυσομηλέα/χρυσομηλιά» (xrisomi'lea/xrisomi'ʎa, f.) is the name of the tree. In our everyday speech we call the tree «πορτοκαλιά» (portoka'ʎa, f.).
    What's interesting is that in Cypriot Greek, «χρυσόμηλο» (xri'somilo, n.-->golden apple) is an alternative name for the apricot.
    Portugal (the country) in Greek is «Πορτογαλία» (Portoɣa'lia, f.).

    [x] is a voiceless velar fricative, known as the hard ch
    [ʎ] is a palatal lateral approximant
    [ɣ] is a voiced velar fricative
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Portugal" cames from the two-word name "Portus Cale" (Warm Port).
    O nome de Portugal é certo que vem de Portum Calem, pero isto não significa 'porto quente', Calem esta relacionado com um endónimo céltico que esta presente en Callaecia/Gallaecia, Galia, gálata, Calcedonia e outro endónimos que agora não lembro todos de povos célticos, e na mesma palavra Celticus, celta duma raíz cal-/gal-/cel-
    According to another version cale/cala just meant "harbour" in Celtic (cf. Gaelic cala, Irish caladh - haven, harbour < qel, qal - hide, as in English hollow).
     

    fazulas

    Senior Member
    Galician
    It seems to me that all this discussion on the etymology of Portugal (which is correct) is missing the whole point of this thread: to discuss how the word Portugal (and its variants, burtugal, burtughal, etc) came to mean a number of different citrus, especially the orange, in many different countries.
     

    arsham

    Senior Member
    Persian
    It seems to me that all this discussion on the etymology of Portugal (which is correct) is missing the whole point of this thread: to discuss how the word Portugal (and its variants, burtugal, burtughal, etc) came to mean a number of different citrus, especially the orange, in many different countries.

    I think ( and I just fancy because I am not sure!) it has to do with the fact that sweet orange was first imported from Portugal by the ottomans. The endemic orange called naareng or naarenj (which was imported from India in the ancient times, the word itself is sanskrit!) is sour!
     

    fazulas

    Senior Member
    Galician
    Funnily enough, and adding to what Arsham has said about the endemic orange, orange is "laranja" in Portuguese. And "naranja" in Spanish, "taronja" in Catalan. So it is interesting to know that these words come from Sanskrit, probably via Persian.
     

    Ironicus

    Senior Member
    English & Swahili - East Africa
    This thread is wonderfully entertaining!

    The English orange comes from an earlier English *norange. But a norange easily becomes an orange.
    The English brought the word from India, where it was (and is) a narang or naranj. The root of the word is Tamil, from naar meaning fragrant - and oranges used to be valued specifically in England for this fragrance that masked the omnipresent smell of ordure in London. People carried an orange stuck with cloves to stave off pestilence. I don't know how effective this was.
    Greek mythology refers to the Golden Apples of the Sun and in Hebrew, an orange is a tappuach zahavah - a golden apple - to this day. These golden apples came from the Hesperides, a mythical place perhaps, but identified with Tartessos in southern Spain. That this was the orange we have today is unlikely: it was probably more like the marmalade orange, tart rather than sweet. And marmalade is from mermelade, Spanish for jam: in English we use it to refer specifically to a jam made of oranges.
    So oranges were present in antiquity in today's Maghreb and Iberia, and could well become burtuqalia on that basis. I find that nobody in Morocco seems to know the word naranj - they all call it burtuqaaliya.
    As a side note: an area of land next to a house was called a pardes. Here one would grow, among other things, oranges, which imparted their fragrance to the pardes; thus pardes came to mean a pleasant place to be, a paradise! And if you've ever walked through an orange grove at sunrise as the dew starts to evaporate, you would have known a foretaste of paradise.
     

    Istriano

    Senior Member
    Croatian
    Orange does not come from Tamil, but from Dravidian.
    The word ultimately derives from a Dravidian language—possibly Telugu నారింజ naarinja or Malayalam നാരങ്ങ‌ naaranga or Tamil நாரம் nāram—via Sanskrit नारङ्ग nāraṅgaḥ "orange tree", with borrowings through Persian نارنگ nārang and Arabic نارنج nāranj.
    (Wikipedia)

    It is still said naranya, in Malayalam, but in Tamil the English loan orange is used instead: http://kidsone.in/tamil/learntamil/fruits/orange.jsp
     
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    aruniyan

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    Orange does not come from Tamil, but from Dravidian.
    (Wikipedia)

    It is still said naranya, in Malayalam, but in Tamil the English loan orange is used instead: http://kidsone.in/tamil/learntamil/fruits/orange.jsp

    In Tamil the Orange that came from outside is only called by the English name Orange, the locally grown one is called as "Naar-than-gaai" (citron) used mainly for pickles.


    Naar-than-gaai =The fruit with smell(naarram) , the word "kaai"(un ripe) at the end is general term for all unripe fruits and vegetables as opposed to the attractive kani(ripen fruit).
    The word Naar refers to the smell where Naa = (receiving the hidden/unknown)
     
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    Ironicus

    Senior Member
    English & Swahili - East Africa
    Istriano - Tamil is a Dravidian language. In fact, the word "Dravid" is itself derived from the word "Tamil".
    And thank you aruniyan for giving us an insight into the root in modern Tamil!
     

    Istriano

    Senior Member
    Croatian
    But we can't make a = sign between Dravidian and Tamil, so it's better to say orange comes from Proto-Dravidian, which is the common origin of all modern Dravidian languages, from Telugu to Brahul.
     

    Ironicus

    Senior Member
    English & Swahili - East Africa
    I think Proto-Dravidian would have played its part and expired long before the British reached India. After all, the Tirukkural is at least 1500 years old, and it's in Tamil, not Proto-Dravidian. So naar- is Tamil.
     

    ilocas2

    Banned
    Czech
    Czech:

    Portugal - Portugalsko
    orange (fruit) - pomeranč
    orange tree - pomerančovník
    orange (colour) - oranžový
     
    I once heard that the word "portugal" meant "orange" in several languages around the Mediterranean, and I'd like to see if this is true. My question has three parts:

    1) Does your language have a common noun "portugal", or very similar to it?

    2) If so, does this word mean "orange", or some other fruit?

    3) If the answers to 1) and 2) are "yes", could you tell me the etymology of that noun?

    Thank you very much.

    Interesting discussion.

    1) and 2) Like other, Italians and not, have already pointed out in this discussion, in Italian "portugal" is not a common name but it is used to designate an "orange" in many dialects (I live in the Marches, central Italy, eastern side, and "portogallo" is the way oranges are called in the dialect of the area where I am from).

    3) After attending some lessons of Arabic, I would believe that the origins of that noun are Arabic.
    Some say it comes from the name of the country, but that does not sound plausible to me.
    There is also one specific reason why I believe so: the fact that the word "portogallo" means "orange" not in standard Italian, i.e. the one that was used by the educated classes, but in dialects throughout Italy. My area had little contact with Portugal: why would people have associated a fruit with a country of which they probably ignored the very existence? Being on the Adriatic, contacts with the Near East were probably much more frequent, and it seems natural to me that people tried to imitate the sound of the word that was used to designate oranges. Someone said that even in the Brescia dialect (eastern Lombardy) a dialect equivalent of "portogallo" is used in the same way: it should be noted that Brescia was part of the Venetian state since the 15th century, and Venice has always had intense relationships with the Near East, not with Portugal. The use of the word "portogallo" as "orange" seems to be widespread in Southern and Adriatic (i.e. Eastern) dialects: all those areas had strong commercial ties with the Eastern Mediterranean, not with Portugal.

    The example of "peach" is similar: in Italian it is "pesca", but in my dialect it is also called "persica" (i.e., "Persian"), as in Eastern languages.

    Moreover, the Greek word for "orange" was imported from its Venetian equivalent well before the fruit was introduced in Europe by the Portuguese, so the etymology of the word can not be related to Portugal.

    Finally: if the fruit is named after the country that introduced it, why would it be called "Portugal" not in countries such as Spain, France, England or Germany, i.e. in Western, Central and Northern Europe, but in the Balkans, which obviously had only marginal contact with Portugal, and much more with the Near and Middle East, especially through the Ottomans?

    In my opinion, many linguists were simply not aware that the Arabic word for "orange" was very similar to the name of the European country, so this misled them into believing that the common noun "portugal" had to do with the country and they looked for a reason why it could have been so.

    The point is: does someone know Arabic well enough to research the etymology of the noun in Arabic? If it turns out that the word appears in Arabic before the fruit was traded by the Portuguese, the theory that links the common noun with Portugal inevitably can not be supported. Instead, if it turns out that the Arabic word can only be found after the 16th century, it is the other way round.
     
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    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    I think this is a case of "false friend"

    The national name of Portugal doesn't come from the Orange, but from the Latin "Portus Cale" (actual city of Oporto) which was the most important Roman town in the region of Gallaecia, ancient name of that area, that today it's just used to indicate the Spanish region of Galicia, which was the cradle of Portuguese language

    Instead about the fruit, in Sardinian it's simply called "arantzu", plural "sos arantzos", there are however various examples of fruits and animals whose names indicate their origins

    Trigu Moriscu
    (mais, corn) - literally "Moorish Wheat"
    Pèssiche, Pèssighe (peach) - Latin "Mela Persica, Persicae" (Persian Apple)
    Mela Chidonza (quince) - Latin "Mela Cydonia" (Cydonian Apple; from the town of Cydonia, island of Crete)
    Figu India (prickly pear) - Latin "Ficus Indica" (Indian Fig)
    Dindu (turkey) - abbreviation of "Puddu d'India" (Indian Chicken)
     

    mataripis

    Senior Member
    Hello guys. In my country the terms Dalanghita and Dalandan means orange or citrus fruit that become yellow orange in color when ripe. Tagalog does not have words related to portugal but as a nation that once become a spanish colony ,that word portugal or portakali referring to orange fruit is likely derived from word Fruta.That common fruit called Portakali possibly called by early people as Frutakali.A greek influnce at the last part of the word.The possible meaning is Fruta( fruit) + kali( good) or good fruit.
     

    Pugnator

    Senior Member
    Neapoilitan (Naples) / Italian (Italy)
    Even in my language, (Neapolitan) orange are called purtuallo which is also the name of Portugal. I read at least 3 theory. The first is that french soldiers while distributing oranges to population said "Pour toi!" and it later was changed in Portuallo by the population, but I think this theory is wrong because it is present in various language so it's very improbable that french did this.The second is that they were imported by Portugal through Spain and this could be probable and the last is that it simple come from the greek Portokalia and for a overlap the 2 words melt togheter.
     

    123xyz

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    The only Slavic language with a Portuguese origin of the word orange seems to be Bulgarian - portokal, портокал.

    Macedonian also has "портокал" meaning "orange", from Turkish or Greek.
    The colour is "портокалов"; Istriano has provided the feminine form of this word
    The country (Portugal) is "Португалија".
     
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