Präpositionen mit dem Dativ und Akkusativ

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by PianoMan, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. PianoMan

    PianoMan Senior Member

    California, U.S.
    United States, English
    Können Sie mir helfen?
    I thought I understood when to use the accusitive case over the dative case, but I've been testing myself and apparently I'm getting it wrong, it seems like it makes sense in the initial explanation, but now that I think about it, I'm confused when I should use one over the other. I understand the bit about dative goes after pronouns, and accusitive after verbs but there always seems to be to many bending of the rules and it just doesn't seem right, could you clear that up for me?

    Danke schön
  2. Jana337

    Jana337 Senior Member

    It will be most useful if you give us sentences that strike you as counter-intuitive. :)
    I don't understand the first part of this statement. :confused:

  3. mundanemich New Member

    English and United States
    The usual order is subject, verb, dative, accusative.
    When the accusative is a noun [not a pronoun], the order is subject, verb, dative, accusative.

    z.B. Ich schicke meiner Tante eine Karte.
    Ich schicke ihm eine Karte.

    When you use an accusative pronoun, the order is subjet, verb, accusative, dative.

    z.B. Ich schicke sie meiner Tante.
    Ich schicke sie ihr.
  4. elroy

    elroy Motley mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Moreover, it doesn't seem to be correct.

    Ich gebe ihm ein Buch. (accusative after pronoun; dative after verb)
  5. PianoMan

    PianoMan Senior Member

    California, U.S.
    United States, English
    Yes, that's exactly my problem, I've learned (of course this can easily be incorrect) that accusatives tend to follow verbs and datives tend to follow problems, but there are so many times where that seems to be the exact opposite. What I guess I'm really looking for is a way or a short list or rules on how to determine which one to use.
  6. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    Davites tend to follow problems? :)

    I have no idea what you mean!

  7. selters Member

    Norwegian, Norway
    an, auf, hinter, in, neben, über, unter, vor, zwischen (dative and accusative)

    aus, bei, mit, nach, seit, von, zu (dative)

    durch, für, gegen, ohne, um (accusative)

    I think you should learn these prepositions by heart. It will make things a lot easier for you in the long run.
  8. PianoMan

    PianoMan Senior Member

    California, U.S.
    United States, English
    :eek: Oops, sorry, I typed in problems when I meant to say prepositions...ugh, my mistake.

    But thanks Selters for the list of prepositions. I guess the information that I heard originally and shared with you must have been a little faulty and misleading, apparently, there's no general rule for prepostions and what case to use, just a specific list like what Selters wrote out.

    About the verbs though, do you just use the dative case only after hilfen? Or are there other verbs I should be aware of for using it after?

    Thanks for your help, and sorry about the confusion.
  9. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale

    Here is a site that list many of the most important ones:


  10. PianoMan

    PianoMan Senior Member

    California, U.S.
    United States, English
    Thanks for the link, so basically, I just have a good amount of memorizing ahead of me...:) Thanks again!
  11. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    But you can absorb a lot from reading and listening.

    For instance, if you hear, over and over "das gefällt mir", then you know it's dative by sound, otherwise it would be "mich". :)

  12. rjs2371 New Member

    United States English

    it might also help to go over some English grammar rules about direct and indirect objects. Once you can explain it to yourself in English, it will make it easier for you to explain it to yourself in German.
  13. User1001 Senior Member

    American English
    Kürzlich habe ich gefunden, daß ich manchmal ein kleines Problem mit Präpositionen habe, denn ich weiß nicht, wenn jmd. eine Präposition mit dem Dativ oder Akkusativ benutzen muss, also macht es mir Schwierigkeiten. Nach meinem grammatischem Buch benutzt man die Präpositionen mit dem Dativ, wenn die Aktion drin etw. ist, und dem Akkusativ, wenn die Aktion in Richtung etw. ist. Aber diese Erklärung ist doch mir nicht verständlich, also frag' ich mich...

    ...ob ihr ein Paar Beispiele/Erklärungen für die Präpositionen mir stellen könnt, die beide Dativ und Akkusativ benutzen, damit ich eine besser (und verständlicher) Erklärung bekommen kann, und meine deutsche Kenntnisse auch besser werden kann. :D

    Danke im Voraus für alle Informationen, Erklärungen, uzw. :)

    P.S. Was denkt ihr über mein Deutsch? Habe ich viel Fortschritt im Vergleich mit meinen anderen Nachrichten an diesem Forum gemacht? ;)
  14. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    To me there are three important levels in any language:

    1) You begin to communicate, and you are able to say what you want well enough that people can guess what you mean—in spite of rather large problems.

    2) You are able to get your point across all the time. Even if you are still making small errors, no one has any problem understanding what you are saying.

    3) You reach such a high level that people no longer can tell that you are not a native.

    I had zero problems understanding exactly what you meant, so to me that means that you are doing very well. Our "Muttersprachler" are always going to find mistakes, but I really don't think they are important unless you are taking tests!

    As for the dative/accusative problem, I believe it may have to do with something that also gives me great problems. Sometimes motion goes back and forth or round and round, but nothing really gets anywhere. It's as if the average cancels out motion, and then we sometimes run into dative. I think there have been threads about this in this forum, but I don't know where to find them at this time. :)

    I'm sure our members can give you example sentences.

  15. uguban Senior Member

    Köln / Colonia / Cologne
    Germany, german

    es gibt Präpositionen, die nur den Akk. verlangen, z.B.: für, ohne, um, gegen, durch.

    Und solche, die immer den Dativ verlangen, z.B.: zu, bei, aus, mit, nach, seit, von.

    Die dritte Gruppe Präpositionen, die du - glaube ich - meinst, sind die so genannten Wechselpräpositionen: auf, unter, über, neben, zwischen, an, hinter, vor, in. Diese Präpositionen stehen mit dem Dativ bei der Frage "Wo?" und mit dem Akkusativ bei der Frage "Wohin", z.B.:

    Das Buch liegt auf dem Tisch. (Wo?) Ich lege es auf den Tisch. (Wohin?)

    Peter wohnt in der Schweiz. (Wo?) Ich fahre in die Schweiz. (Wohin?)

    Alles klar? Liebe Grüße.
  16. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    I'm not sure, but perhaps this might be more the problem. I can't come up with good examples, but this might be one:

    Die Sraße läuft entlang der Küste bis …

    I can never solve such problems with wo/wohin.

  17. uguban Senior Member

    Köln / Colonia / Cologne
    Germany, german

    I can't really understand the problem in your example as it is quiete clear that the street is not really moving from point A to point B, so that the logical question would be: Wo ist die Straße?

    It is perhaps even more clear, when you compare your example with: Ich laufe die Straße entlang. As in this example it is quiete obvious that I'm really moving from one point to another.

    In addition, most of the examples in normal speach are much more obvious regarding 'where' (no direction) or 'where to' (direction). One should not complicate things (even if you use the 'wrong' case), there are enough germans who are not able to manage the cases properly. I think the most important thing is to comunicate, isn't it?
  18. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    Probably a bad example. :)

  19. mustang72 Senior Member

    Austin, TX
    Swiss German
    Ich fand das ein exzellentes Beispiel an dem ich mich als Schueler sicher auch totgebissen haette. Und wohl auch heute noch. Diese Fragen nach Wo? und Wohin? sind so pertinent fuer die Grammatik das man die eigentliche Logik in der Sache uebersieht.
  20. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    Here is the problem, I think.

    1) "Der Hund läuft auf der Straße." (nicht zielgerichtet)

    In this case I assume that the dog is "running around" somehow, not going anywhere.

    I don't know if this sentence is correct, but if so, it may have to do with the problem:

    Dann die ersten Stunden in Indien: Kühe, Kühe, Hunde, Ziegen, Ochsen, und wieder Kühe, alles läuft auf der Strasse herum, als wäre der Zaun im Zoo kaputt.

    (The fish don't really get anywhere, no matter how large the "circle is".)

    It's very common to see a word such as "herum" when dative is used to show no "net movement". The problem is that beginning courses always stress that verbs such as "schwimmen" and "laufen" will use accusative when prepositions are "two-way", and that is not the full story—in my opinion.

    2) "Der Hund läuft auf die Straße." (zielgerichtet, Akkusativ)

    Again, this sentence may or may not be good:

    Ihre Katze entwischt durch die Haustür, läuft auf die Strasse und wird angefahren.

    (The cat ran "up" or "down" the street, one direction, heading somewhere…)

    I still don't know whether or not swimmers who are swimming laps are considered to be heading somewhere (goal) or mearly "in the pool", (no goal).

    The idea that "läuft auf die Straße/läuft auf der Straße" immediately sends a different message to the "German-speaking" brain is alien to those of us who speak a language lacking direct articles that refect cases.

  21. Aurin

    Aurin Senior Member

    Alemania (alemán)
    Entlang ist eine Präposition, die nachgestellt mit Akkusativ und vorangestellt mit Dativ benutzt wird. Dabei spielt es keine Rolle, ob Bewegung oder nicht im Spiel ist. Das trifft nur auf die 9 Wechselpräpositionen zu.
    Die Straße läuft entlang der Küste bis...
    Die Straße läuft die Küste entlang bis....
  22. Aurin

    Aurin Senior Member

    Alemania (alemán)
    Der Hund läuft auf die Straße. Dann ist er vorher woanders gewesen. Die Bewegung hat also von woanders zur Straße stattgefunden.
    Der Hund läuft auf der Straße. Er bewegt sich zwar auf der Straße. Aber es hat keine Bewegung von woanders zur Straße stattgefunden.
  23. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    I understand your confusion, Gaer, but I think it is quite easy once you've managed to understand how we "think" what movement is and what not.

    This could be compared to "The dog is running circles in the streets." He moves to and fro, from the left to the right, maybe he even rolls around and climbs up some parking cars. But there's no movement from A to B.

    You could translate such a sentence as "The dog is running toward the street and stops there." He could be coming from his doghouse or his master and runs down/up (depending on where he started) to the street. The movement is from A to B.

    It would be easier to explain it with a complete sentence. :)

    Markus schwimmt bereits die dritte Runde (accusative).
    Marcus is swimming his third lap.

    Herr Meier will den Ärmelkanal (dative) durchschwimmen/will durch den Ärmelkanal schwimmen.
    Mister Meier wants to scwim across the Canal.

    Hans schwimmt Katja (dative) davon.
    Hans pulls away from Katja.

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