Pre- and post-nominal genitives again

[tetsugakusha43]

Do you guys find any asymmetry between (1a) and (1b) or are they equally good (or equally bad)?

(1a) Pictures of herself naked had upset some of Mary’s relatives
(1b) Pictures of herself naked had upset some relatives of Mary’s

 

[Hermione Golightly]

I would very much prefer 'pictures of Mary naked had upset some of her relatives'. Your second is worse than the first.

 

[dojibear]

If the subject is female then "herself" is reflexive. But the subject is not female. So what does "herself" mean?

Mary took pictures of herself.
Tony bought pictures of herself at the store.

 

[tetsugakusha43]

I would very much prefer 'pictures of Mary naked had upset some of her relatives'. Your second is worse than the first.

Do your judgements change at all if we snip the genitival inflection (i.e. Pictures of herself naked had upset some relatives of Mary)? I have in mind minimal pairs such as (2a-b):

(2a) Pictures of herself naked had upset some relatives/acquaintances of hers
(2a) Pictures of herself naked had upset some relatives/acquaintances of her

 

[Thomas Tompion]

Do your judgements change at all if we snip the genitival inflection (i.e. Pictures of herself naked had upset some relatives of Mary)? I have in mind minimal pairs such as (2a-b):

(2a) Pictures of herself naked had upset some relatives/acquaintances of hers
(2a) Pictures of herself naked had upset some relatives/acquaintances of her

I'd say it had to be hers, in this sentence.

It's still not clear who the pictures are of, and the sentence as a whole is a mess.

Hermione has given you a way out of what looks to be a self-imposed tangle.

 

[Hermione Golightly]

tetsugakisha, I think you missed doji's point about the misuse of the reflexive.

 

[Thomas Tompion]

I think you missed doji's point about the misuse of the reflexive.

I promise you I felt it most keenly, Hermione.

 

[Hermione Golightly]

Yes, I am in no doubt about the keenness of your sensibilities, Mr Tompion, and as always rejoice in them.

 

[dojibear]

The bank's picture == A picture of the bank.
The lizard's tail == The tail of the lizard.

So why isn't Mary's relatives == relatives of Mary? Why is it relatives of Mary's?

It's a mystery to me. I don't understand it. Can someone help? Are both of Mary and of Mary's correct?

That is the question post 1 is asking. "Herself" is a distraction from the question.

 

[Chasint]

The problem of the original sentences is that the use of "herself" is unclear. What is its antecedent? Who took the photos? Who owns them? One way to clear this up would be as follows:

Mary's pictures of herself naked had upset some of Mary’s relatives.

or

Mary's pictures of herself naked had upset some of her relatives.

Now we know that "herself" refers back to Mary. We can deduce that Mary took the pictures and/or owns them. If Mary neither took the photos nor owns them, then "herself" is incorrect. In that case you should use "her".