Pronunciation ממני and ממנו

Gwunderi

Senior Member
German (CH) / Italian - bilingual
שלום

I learned that ממני and ממנו are pronounced "mimeni" and "mimenu".
But now looking for examples online (context.reverso.net) I find that the pronunciation is always "mameni" and "mamenu".

For example:
אני פוחדת ממנו
הוא פוחד ממני

My book is very reliable, so I'm rather confused now …

Thanks for your help
Gwunderi

P.S. Maybe the two "m" are pronounced so close together that you hardly can hear a difference, it "something between"? Talking loudly to myself I now think this could be the answer?
 
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  • origumi

    Senior Member
    N/A
    Your book is correct. We write ממנו and say mimenu (historically mimmennu, and before a geminated letter we usually don't write yod "י" for the sound "i").
     

    Gwunderi

    Senior Member
    German (CH) / Italian - bilingual
    Your book is correct. We write ממנו and say mimenu (historically mimmennu, and before a geminated letter we usually don't write yod "י" for the sound "i").
    Thanks a lot, origumi

    I'm glad, since mimeni sounds much better than mameni.

    :D "Reverso" נראה שלפעמים כותבים שטויות ב

    geminated: ואפילו למדתי מילה חדשה באנגלית

    תודה רבה
    גבונדרי
     
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    bazq

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    Just note that it's true the standarized Modern Hebrew form of ממנו is [mimenu], but Israelis say [mimeno] much more often. I can't remember the last time I heard [mimenu] in a regular conversation (you can hear it on TV and on the radio, and of course see it when you encounter a vocalized text with niqqud). If you are learning Hebrew in order to speak with Israelis, [mimeno] would be the preferred form.
     

    Gwunderi

    Senior Member
    German (CH) / Italian - bilingual
    Just note that it's true the standarized Modern Hebrew form of ממנו is [mimenu], but Israelis say [mimeno] much more often. I can't remember the last time I heard [mimenu] in a regular conversation (you can hear it on TV and on the radio, and of course see it when you encounter a vocalized text with niqqud). If you are learning Hebrew in order to speak with Israelis, [mimeno] would be the preferred form.
    Thanks for your clarification. "Mimeno" is also more "logical", since most masculine singular suffixes end with "o": אותו, שלו, איתו etc. I'll keep it in mind, and also pronounce it this way when I'll have a chance once.

    שלום
    גבונדרי
     

    DieHigh

    Member
    Hebrew
    It's not at all uncommon to hear people say "mimenu" in regular conversations, but it's used in the sense of מאיתנו.
     

    Gwunderi

    Senior Member
    German (CH) / Italian - bilingual
    It's not at all uncommon to hear people say "mimenu" in regular conversations, but it's used in the sense of מאיתנו.
    As long as people understand each other :rolleyes:

    I also had to get used to it, for normally the ending -nu is for the 1st person plural:
    שלנו, אותנו איתנו, etc., and at the beginning I often mixed them up.

    I ask myself if maybe the many עולים חדשים introduce such strange forms; for a beginner it comes more spontaneous to say mimenu for meitanu, and so it becomes "common use"?

    תודה ולילה טוב
    גבונדרי
     

    hadronic

    Senior Member
    French - France
    That's weird... The French side of Reverso shows "mimènou", English side shows nikud מַמְּנוּ (which actually means "we financed" - globally all vocalizations seem computer generated and plain wrong), and the automated voice (in the app) says "mimenu"... It goes in all directions.

    Your book is correct. We write ממנו and say mimenu (historically mimmennu, and before a geminated letter we usually don't write yod "י" for the sound "i").
    It's precisely the opposite. Before a geminated consonant, yod is normally written, except for a couple of situations (ממנו, binyan הפעיל, derived words לבי/אמתי...).
     
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    origumi

    Senior Member
    N/A
    It's precisely the opposite.
    My comment was inaccurate, but it's not "exactly the opposite". The two (gemination, yod) are simply not related.
    So I'll rephrase: when a word starts with "mi" which is a contraction of "min" (like in mimmennu, and therefore the next letter is geminated), there's no yod.
     

    Gwunderi

    Senior Member
    German (CH) / Italian - bilingual
    That's weird... The French side of Reverso shows "mimènou", English side shows nikud מַמְּנוּ (which actually means "we financed" - globally all vocalizations seem computer generated and plain wrong), and the automated voice (in the app) says "mimenu"... It goes in all directions.
    Really? I very seldom look at the nikkud, for I use Reverso only for words I already know, for new words I always use my very reliable dictionary, fortunately. But it's not "only" the nikkud, for some sentences there's also the transliteration, and also there it's always "mameni" and "mamenu" (in my example), not just once, in ALL examples (on the English side). No idea if this can also be computer generated.

    That's weird indeed, good that you "warned" me, I'll simply never look at them again.

    תודה ולהיתראות
    גבונדרי

    P.S. Now I'm really shocked :eek:, after looking for the first time at the German-Italian sentences in Reverso my advice to everyone would be: be very very careful in using it! Many sentences are perfect, but not few other are plain and sometimes shockingly wrong - or funny, better laugh at them.
     
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    airelibre

    Senior Member
    English - London
    I was initially shocked when I saw "mimenu", I wondered if I'd been saying it wrong all this time. I agree that "mimeno" is much more common in my experience.
     
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    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    "Mimeno" is also more "logical", since most masculine singular suffixes end with "o": אותו, שלו, איתו etc.
    To get back on topic, I can explain the logic of מִמֶּנּוּ (mimménnu). In case you haven't noticed, the ending -o is always stressed: בּוֹ bó, אִתּוֹ 'ittó, שֶׁלּוֹ shelló, אוֹתוֹ 'otó. An example with a verb is (from Deuteronomy 34:10) יְדָעוֹ yeda`ó = "he knew him". When it is unstressed, it is always -hu: כָּמוֹהוּ kamóhu, שָׂדֵהוּ sadéhu. With a verb (from Psalms 72:11) יַעַבְדוּהוּ ya`avdúhu = "they will serve him" Now, when there is an "n" (or a "t", but I won't get into that) before the "hu", the "nhu" often becomes "nnu". An example with a verb (from Genesis 37:27) is וְנִמְכְּרֶנּוּ venimkerénnu = "and we will sell him" (the "-én" is a suffix that is sometimes added to future tense verbs that don't already have a suffix, before a suffix pronoun). So when we have mimmén- + -hu ("from him"), we get mimménnu, and incidentally that's the same as what we get from mimmén- + -nu ("from us"). Now don't ask me why the stem of מִן with most suffixes is mimmén-, I don't know why. It's interesting to also look at אין, which has both stems 'enén- and 'en-: 'enén- + -hu = 'enénnu (אֵינֶנּוּ) and 'en- + -ó = 'enó (אֵינוֹ).

    Sorry, if that's too much information.
     

    Gwunderi

    Senior Member
    German (CH) / Italian - bilingual
    To get back on topic, I can explain the logic of מִמֶּנּוּ (mimménnu). In case you haven't noticed, the ending -o is always stressed: בּוֹ bó, אִתּוֹ 'ittó, שֶׁלּוֹ shelló, אוֹתוֹ 'otó. An example with a verb is (from Deuteronomy 34:10) יְדָעוֹ yeda`ó = "he knew him". When it is unstressed, it is always -hu: כָּמוֹהוּ kamóhu, שָׂדֵהוּ sadéhu. With a verb (from Psalms 72:11) יַעַבְדוּהוּ ya`avdúhu = "they will serve him" Now, when there is an "n" (or a "t", but I won't get into that) before the "hu", the "nhu" often becomes "nnu". An example with a verb (from Genesis 37:27) is וְנִמְכְּרֶנּוּ venimkerénnu = "and we will sell him" (the "-én" is a suffix that is sometimes added to future tense verbs that don't already have a suffix, before a suffix pronoun). So when we have mimmén- + -hu ("from him"), we get mimménnu, and incidentally that's the same as what we get from mimmén- + -nu ("from us"). Now don't ask me why the stem of מִן with most suffixes is mimmén-, I don't know why. It's interesting to also look at אין, which has both stems 'enén- and 'en-: 'enén- + -hu = 'enénnu (אֵינֶנּוּ) and 'en- + -ó = 'enó (אֵינוֹ).

    Sorry, if that's too much information.
    It's indeed a bit too much for me, especially now after a hard working day; I only recently learned the plural form of the verbs and don't master them yet.

    I didn't know להימכר (at least now I'm able to devine the infinite of a verb), I imagine it's about Joseph who was sold by his brothers?
    So the future would be נימכר or נמכר, and an "-en" is added (as it is sometimes), and then -hu, and that becomes -nnu. Maybe now I get it. And the same for mimmen-hu becomes mimmennu (no idea where the -en in mimmen- comes from).

    Wow, that was complicated : )

    I'm also not used yet to add the pronoun to the verb. So ידעו can mean "they knew", "they will know" or "he knew him", depending on the context or the pronunciation - wow!

    And what's the future "he will know him": also יעדו?
    And "they will know him" is יעדוהו?

    Maybe I must first learn these forms systematically, it's really a bit too early for me …

    And tomorrow I'll have another hard working day, but on Saturday I (or rather my mind :rolleyes: will be here again.

    תודה רבה ושלום
    גבונדרי

    P.S. I tryied to conjugate להימכר now: אני נמכרת (בשוק) :D
     
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    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    It's indeed a bit too much for me, especially now after a hard working day; I only recently learned the plural form of the verbs and don't master them yet.

    I didn't know להימכר (at least now I'm able to devine the infinite of a verb), I imagine it's about Joseph who was sold by his brothers?
    So the future would be נימכר or נמכר, and an "-en" is added (as it is sometimes), and then -hu, and that becomes -nnu. Maybe now I get it. And the same for mimmen-hu becomes mimmennu (no idea where the -en in mimmen- comes from).

    Wow, that was complicated : )

    I'm also not used yet to add the pronoun to the verb. So ידעו can mean "they knew", "they will know" or "he knew him", depending on the context or the pronunciation - wow!

    And what's the future "he will know him": also יעדו?
    And "they will know him" is יעדוהו?

    Maybe I must first learn these forms systematically, it's really a bit too early for me …

    And tomorrow I'll have another hard working day, but on Saturday I (or rather my mind :rolleyes: will be here again.

    תודה רבה ושלום
    גבונדרי

    P.S. I tryied to conjugate להימכר now: אני נמכרת (בשוק) :D
    Firstly, don't worry too much about attaching pronouns to verbs, because this is very rare in Modern Hebrew. It is, however, very common in Biblical Hebrew and a little less common but still present in Mishnaic and Medieval Hebrew. In Modern Hebrew 99.9% you should just use the forms of the preposition את for direct objects (i.e. אותי, אותך, אותו, אותה, etc.).

    Secondly, the verb is מכר in binyan qal (pa'al). וְנִמְכְּרֶנּוּ (venimkerennu) = ve + nimkor + en + hu.

    Thirdly, "he will know him" would be either יֵדָעֵהוּ (yeda`éhu) or יֵדָעֶנּוּ (yeda`énnu), but you're right that "they will know him" would be יֵדָעוּהוּ (yeda`úhu). But like I said, in Modern Hebrew, just use ידע אותו and ידעו אותו. (Also, you accidentally swapped the ע and ד in your guesses).
     

    Gwunderi

    Senior Member
    German (CH) / Italian - bilingual
    Firstly, don't worry too much about attaching pronouns to verbs, because this is very rare in Modern Hebrew. It is, however, very common in Biblical Hebrew and a little less common but still present in Mishnaic and Medieval Hebrew. In Modern Hebrew 99.9% you should just use the forms of the preposition את for direct objects (i.e. אותי, אותך, אותו, אותה, etc.).

    Secondly, the verb is מכר in binyan qal (pa'al). וְנִמְכְּרֶנּוּ (venimkerennu) = ve + nimkor + en + hu.

    Thirdly, "he will know him" would be either יֵדָעֵהוּ (yeda`éhu) or יֵדָעֶנּוּ (yeda`énnu), but you're right that "they will know him" would be יֵדָעוּהוּ (yeda`úhu). But like I said, in Modern Hebrew, just use ידע אותו and ידעו אותו. (Also, you accidentally swapped the ע and ד in your guesses).
    Of course, the passive voice להימכר wouldn't even make sense here, "We will be sold him" (זה שטות). And the future is נמכור (or נמכר). Strangely I didn't even know למכור yet, but soon.

    I forgot to ask, but I immagined it's a (very) rarely used form, since you always see the pronoun detached.

    As to my accidental swapping of the ע and ד: that's not the first time, see how I still must concentrate not to make such mistakes …
     
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    LXNDR

    Senior Member
    Russian
    In spoken and regular written language "from us" is מאתנו so in most cases it's a non-issue
    If you encounter a text in a literary Hebrew context is the key
     
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