Pronunciation: 一点儿(點兒)

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by James Bates, May 18, 2013.

  1. James Bates Banned

    Urdu
    My book says 一點兒 ("a little") is transliterated yìdiǎnr in Pinyin. I have heard several speakers pronounce this word and cannot detect any hint of "n". It sounds as if it were yìdiǎr. Can anybody help me?
     
  2. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie Senior Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    When 兒 is attached to a sound ending in n, this n will be dropped. Yìdiǎr is correct and this is the reason you don't hear n :)
     
  3. yuechu Senior Member

    Canada
    Canada, English
    The "n" is silent in yìdiǎnr, as counterintuitive as that is. The "n" is kept in solely to show what the original pronunciation/syllable was (which did not have any "er"/儿/兒).
     
  4. khoo1993 Member

    Beijing
    Chinese
    normally i just pronounce it as yìdiǎn
     
  5. James Bates Banned

    Urdu
    Oh, I see. I guess it depends on the dialect.
    謝謝!
     
  6. colum4 Senior Member

    China-Chinese
    你好,
    正确的读音是“yìdiǎnr”。

    不过在日常生活中使用就可以不这么严格了。
     
  7. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    "dianr" means the er-ization of "dian". It does not represent the actual sound.

    I think OP's question is if the nasal sound is dropped. That's true. There is no way to er-ize /n/.

    I think what column4 means is that you can't use Pinyin "diar" to represent the "correct" sound of "dianr". In fact, "dianr" sounds more like "dier", while "diar" means a different sound to native speakers. ("dier" is also incorrect because it represents a third sound actually. The only correct way to write that sound is "dianr".)
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  8. YangMuye

    YangMuye Senior Member

    For me, there are mainly two classes of r-colored vowels: er and ar. And I oftten pronounce “er” the same as “ar”.
    dianr, dier and diar are exactly the same to me.
    xinr(笔芯儿) and jianr(打尖儿) may be pronounced either the same or differently.
     
  9. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    Maybe I didn't explain clearly. What I meant was
    dianr=颠儿
    diar=嗲儿 (or 嘎儿, which has the same vowel)
    dier=蝶儿
    Clearly they are completely different sounds.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  10. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    When there's an "n" sound at the end of a Chinese vowel, your tongue doesn't need to touch the roof of your mouth, not like in English.
    So there isn't such a possibility for a "nr" sound in Chinese, it can't be pronounced. It's just a mark.

    Another example, when a Chinese pronounce 天安门 "Tian-an-men", it won't become "tian-nan-men".
     
  11. YangMuye

    YangMuye Senior Member

    Do you mean it's the widely accepted way to pronounce (as you say In fact, "dianr" sounds more like "dier", while "diar" means a different sound to native speakers), or you mean it's your own way?
    It's still not clear to me.


    北京话儿化韵的社会分歧(http://blog.sciencenet.cn/blog-781460-616696.html) 沈炯(He was a professor of Peking university)
    According to him, “ianr” and “ar” are the same (for most speakers).
    /ɐʳ/ and /ɚ/=/əʳ/ in his paper are the two kinds of r-vowels I said.


    As for ie and üe, they are /ieʳ/ and /yeʳ/ according to the table at the last paragraph.
    eir is /ɚ/ according to the same table. However, he said eir is /eʳ/ somewhere else.
    According to his research, ier and ir has a high merging rate. 爷儿 = 姨儿(27.7~41.9%), 叶儿 = 意儿(48.16~67.21%)
     
  12. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    It's very obvious to me that these 3 sounds are different. I was not saying dianr is similar to dier. I was only trying to explain the notations: dianr sounds like d-i-er(得衣而), but if I see "dier", I will take it as die.r (er-ize of 碟, which is a different sound). I talked about notations because of colum4's post (that may confuse OP whose main concern is if 'n' is dropped.)

    As for the combination of dianr and diar, that's a different topic. No matter how it is actually pronounced, I believe everyone can still distinguish the sounds. Moreover, I've been speaking the language since born but never heard of dianr and diar are merged. I won't understand if people speak in that way. Beijing is not the only place to use 儿化音. I don't think these sounds have been merged in other places or in the standard 普通话. Imagine in 新闻联播, the 播音员 says "...一嗲儿...", they must have problems with their tougue:D
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  13. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    As a Beijinger, I can't find any difference between "dianr" and "diar". 颠儿 and 嗲儿 are completely the same to me (except their tones).
    And I can hardly imagine how can anyone distinguish these two, not even the reporters.
    There isn't any formal word using the Pinyin of diar, 一嗲儿 is not even a word. I don't think I can hear 新闻联播 says diar. 一点儿 is the only possibility.
    In my opinion, ar and er can be distinguished easily, but ar and anr are exactly the same.
    Also er and enr and eir are the same, e.g. 奔儿(benr), 辈儿(beir), all pronounced er sound.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  14. AsifAkheir Senior Member

    English - Canada
    Hi James Bates,
    there's no way to pronounce the retroflex 'r' in English without at least a hint of nasality (Scotsmen not included), and the same goes for those Chinese dialects that also have it.
    So, whether you represent the nasal sound by writing an 'n' or not, it makes no difference to the humming sound that escapes through your nose.
     
  15. James Bates Banned

    Urdu
    Thanks a lot. That makes sense :)
     
  16. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    I think I understand the problem now. Do you pronounce 面嘎儿嘎儿 as 面肝儿肝儿 (i.e. ar is pronounced as 而)? That's the only "reasonable" sound that I can imagine, and that's a very typical Beijing "taste" to me. In places other than Beijing, we do distinguish ar and anr. The first one is like American sound of the letter 'R' but the second is like '而'.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  17. stellari Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    To be honest, as a non-Beijinger (originally from Shanxi), I don't think I can differentiate dianr and diar either. There might be a slight difference when I actually say them (maybe a is more nasalized in dianr), but I don't make the distinction consistently. Although 'dier' remains distinctive from those two. Similarly, eir and enr are of the same situation to me.
     
  18. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie Senior Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    I agree. The difference is psychological: if you think there is a difference, you WILL hear the difference :)
     
  19. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    Yes. Although I don't know what are those, I would pronounce 嘎儿 as 肝儿. I prefer omitting the "n" sound when adding the "r" sound.
    However, I would pronounce 而 as er(鹅儿) but not ar(啊儿). To me, the Pinyin sound a(啊) and e(鹅) are clearly different. Only the ending parts are debateable. We'll discuss this in the other post.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  20. sleepless619 Member

    MA, USA
    English - American
    In my audio lessons, there is no pronunciation of the "n" whatsoever for "yīdiǎnr". I am wondering if that is correct. Thanks!
     
  21. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie Senior Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    Yes, that is correct. When the "er" is added to a syllable ending in "n", the "n" is dropped (not pronounced).
     
  22. sleepless619 Member

    MA, USA
    English - American
    Thank you! 谢谢!
     
  23. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    Since we can't pronoun "nr" anyway...
    This problem has just been discussed on this forum recently.
     

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