Pronunciation: 尽量

yuechu

Senior Member
Canada, English
Hello/大家好,

I have a question regarding the word 尽量 (=as much as possible; to the greatest extent, according to Perapera dictionary). My dictionary gives both the pronunciations jin3liang4 and jin4liang4. Do both of these pronunciations have the same meanings/are they used in the same situations? If so, which one would you say is the more common pronunciation?

Thanks in advance/谢谢!
 
  • hehola

    Member
    Chinese
    Hello baosheng

    Many people say jin4liang4, but more formal is jin3liang4

    Like 当天, even some newscasters pronounce dang1tian1, but the truth is dang4tian1

    Hope helps
     
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    yuechu

    Senior Member
    Canada, English
    Thanks for your reply, hehola! Just to confirm though: both pronunciations are considered correct though, right? (for 尽量, whereas only dang4tian1 is correct for 当天?)
     

    Lucia_zwl

    Senior Member
    Chinese (Mandarin)
    Both pronuncations have the same meaning, but I think I hear "jin4 liang4" more commonly in TV and radio news.
     

    hehola

    Member
    Chinese
    Just to confirm though: both pronunciations are considered correct though, right? (for 尽量, whereas only dang4tian1 is correct for 当天?)
    I guess Lucia_zwl has given us a great example, I mean, he thinks "jin4 liang4" is quite normal because he hears the words "more commonly in TV and radio news." and that's just what I was talking about earlier.

    I'd like to give you a perfect solution: simply remember that 尽量 should be jin3liang4 and 当天 is dang4tian1. If other people "laugh at" the sounds you pronounce, say 尽量 jin4liang4 and 当天 dang1tian1 instead. But I recommend you pronounce what I told you in formal situations.

    PLUS: 高兴 xing4 兴奋 xing1 大兴安岭 xing1
     

    yuechu

    Senior Member
    Canada, English
    Hello,
    Is there also the same variation between 尽快 jin3kuai4 and jin4kuai4?
    ("jin3" is more formal than "jin4"... but jin4 is "also more common on "TV and radio news"?)

    Actually if jin4 is more common on the news, wouldn't that mean that it is the more formal pronunciation? Or is jin4 a pronunciation even more formal than what one hears on the news? (one that you'd hear more in a university lecture, etc?)

    Thanks!
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    高兴 xing4 兴奋 xing1
    The 興s in the above examples do not mean the same (兴 = 情绪 in 高兴; 兴 = 起 in 兴奋) and therefore there is a justification for their tonal difference. The 盡s in 盡量 and 盡力 mean the same and I don't see why they should pronounce differently. Taiwan dictionaries prescribe 盡量 as jin4liang4 and make a distinction between 盡 jin4 and 儘 jin3. I notice 儘管 is written as 尽管 in simplified characters. Could the merging of 盡 and 儘 be the cause of pronunciation confusion?
     
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    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    The 興s in the above examples do not mean the same (兴 = 情绪 in 高兴; 兴 = 起 in 兴奋) and therefore there is a justification for their tonal difference. The 盡s in 盡量 and 盡力 mean the same and I don't see why they should pronounce differently. Taiwan dictionaries prescribe 盡量 as jin4liang4 and make a distinction between 盡 jin4 and 儘 jin3. I notice 儘管 is written as 尽管 in simplified characters. Could the merging of 盡 and 儘 be the cause of pronunciation confusion?
    I think it's hard for modern speaker to judge the difference of 興 in 高興(happy) and 興奮(excited) so I heard people pronounce both 興xing1奮 and 興xing4奮. It won't be strange if you hear either way in mainland China.
    Of course, the "correct pronunciation" should be the one you guys have said.

    As for 儘 and 盡, I remember I've checked many dictionaries too. It seems different dictionaries and scholars have different opinions on them.
    For example, this Taiwanese dictionary shows both 儘jin3量 and 盡jin4量, declaring 儘量 = 盡量 in meaning.
    Personally, I support the merging. As they are too confusing now. If 儘量 = 盡量, why two characters and two pronunciations?
    The only different meaning seems to be in 儘jin3管, but the meaning of 儘 here is too abstract to understand. In modern Chinese, I can't think of other similar usage of 儘 as in 儘管.
     
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    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    For example, this Taiwanese dictionary shows both 儘jin3量 and 盡jin4量, declaring 儘量 = 盡量 in meaning. Personally, I support the merging. As they are too confusing now. If 儘量 = 盡量, why two characters and two pronunciations? The only different meaning seems to be in 儘jin3管, but the meaning of 儘 here is too abstract to understand. In modern Chinese, I can't think of other similar usage of 儘 as in 儘管.
    盡 jin4 = 竭, 用盡, 彻底發揮 (e.g., 窮理盡性), 都, 全, 達到極限 "all, extremely, totally, completely"
    儘 jin3 = 盡可能 "as much as possible" (approximating 都, 全), 最 "most" (e.g., 儘裡邊兒 = 最裡面的地方), 不加限制, 隨意 (e.g., 儘性地浪費).
    我會盡力相助 (verb 盡 "use up, use all" + noun 力 ==> adverbial 盡力 = 竭力)
    我會儘力相助 (adv 儘 "as much as possible" + noun 力 ==> adverbial 儘力= 全力)
    盡力 (= 竭力) and 儘力 (= 全力) basically mean the same. They are interchangeable.
    請盡量吃 (verb 盡 + noun 量 ==> adverbial 盡量 = 竭盡能纳地)
    請儘量吃 (adv 儘 "as much as possible" + noun 量 ==> adverbial 儘量 = 不限量地, 全量地)
    盡量 (= 竭盡能纳地) and 儘量 (= 全量地) basically mean the same. They are interchangeable.
    盡興 (= 彻底發揮興致, 盡量使興致得到滿足) and 儘興 (= 全興, 極盡興致) basically mean the same. They are interchangeable.
    Please note that those interchangeable cases are 盡/儘 + NOUN. There is a difference, however: 盡 + NOUN can serve as a verb phrase (e.g., 我會盡力, 不能盡興) whereas 儘 + NOUN is always an adverbial (e.g., 儘力攻擊, 儘興喫).
    盡 can also mean 都, 全, 達到極限 "extremely, totally, completely". In this case it is an adverb modifying a verb or adjective. So we have: 應有盡有 (not 應有儘有), 盡在不言中 (not 儘在不言中), 盡善盡美 (not 儘善儘美), 盡歡而散 (not 儘歡而散), 不盡然 (not 不儘然), etc. Although 儘 jin3 = 盡可能 "as much as possible" (approximating 都, 全), it is not the same as 盡 (= 都, 全, 達到極限 "extremely, all, completely"). For instance, 他演得盡善盡美 (= 極為完善美滿 "totally perfect") is not identical to 他演得*儘善儘美 "as perfect as possible", which still may not be perfect.
    As 儘 can serve as an adverb meaning 盡可能 "as much as possible", we have 儘快 "as fast as possible", 儘先/儘早 "as early as possible", 儘想 "think as much as possible", etc. Some of them are synonymous with 盡 (e.g., 儘快 "as fast as possible" = 盡快 "極限地快"); some of them are NOT (e.g., 儘想 "think as much as possible" 如:「這件事關係重大,你要儘想後再做決定。」" vs. 盡想 "think only of" 如:「你怎么盡想美人儿。」).
    When the meaning is "不加限制, 隨意", it is not interchangeable. For instance, 儘管 (= 不加限制隨意去做), 儘著 (= 任憑), 儘教 (= 任意去做而不加管束), 儘讓 (= 任由、聽憑), 儘意隨心 (= 隨興任意).
    The above is the Taiwan Mandarin grammar that I know. I'm not sure if those rules regarding the distinction between jin4 and jin3 would still hold true in Mainland Mandarin.
     
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    Meowstar

    New Member
    Mandarin
    As a Chinese from mainland, my teacher told me that 尽 was a polyphone that can both pronounce jǐn and jìn. jǐn liàng means as far as possible or to the best of one's ability and jìn liàng means to the full,especially for drinking and eating. Hope this will be helpful to you.
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    盡 jin4 = 竭, 用盡, 彻底發揮 (e.g., 窮理盡性), 都, 全, 達到極限 "all, extremely, totally, completely"
    儘 jin3 = 盡可能 "as much as possible" (approximating 都, 全), 最 "most" (e.g., 儘裡邊兒 = 最裡面的地方), 不加限制, 隨意 (e.g., 儘性地浪費).
    我會盡力相助 (verb 盡 "use up, use all" + noun 力 ==> adverbial 盡力 = 竭力)
    我會儘力相助 (adv 儘 "as much as possible" + noun 力 ==> adverbial 儘力= 全力)
    盡力 (= 竭力) and 儘力 (= 全力) basically mean the same. They are interchangeable.
    請盡量吃 (verb 盡 + noun 量 ==> adverbial 盡量 = 竭盡能纳地)
    請儘量吃 (adv 儘 "as much as possible" + noun 量 ==> adverbial 儘量 = 不限量地, 全量地)
    盡量 (= 竭盡能纳地) and 儘量 (= 全量地) basically mean the same. They are interchangeable.
    盡興 (= 彻底發揮興致, 盡量使興致得到滿足) and 儘興 (= 全興, 極盡興致) basically mean the same. They are interchangeable.
    Please note that those interchangeable cases are 盡/儘 + NOUN. There is a difference, however: 盡 + NOUN can serve as a verb phrase (e.g., 我會盡力, 不能盡興) whereas 儘 + NOUN is always an adverbial (e.g., 儘力攻擊, 儘興喫).
    盡 can also mean 都, 全, 達到極限 "extremely, totally, completely". In this case it is an adverb modifying a verb or adjective. So we have: 應有盡有 (not 應有儘有), 盡在不言中 (not 儘在不言中), 盡善盡美 (not 儘善儘美), 盡歡而散 (not 儘歡而散), 不盡然 (not 不儘然), etc. Although 儘 jin3 = 盡可能 "as much as possible" (approximating 都, 全), it is not the same as 盡 (= 都, 全, 達到極限 "extremely, all, completely"). For instance, 他演得盡善盡美 (= 極為完善美滿 "totally perfect") is not identical to 他演得*儘善儘美 "as perfect as possible", which still may not be perfect.
    As 儘 can serve as an adverb meaning 盡可能 "as much as possible", we have 儘快 "as fast as possible", 儘先/儘早 "as early as possible", 儘想 "think as much as possible", etc. Some of them are synonymous with 盡 (e.g., 儘快 "as fast as possible" = 盡快 "極限地快"); some of them are NOT (e.g., 儘想 "think as much as possible" 如:「這件事關係重大,你要儘想後再做決定。」" vs. 盡想 "think only of" 如:「你怎么盡想美人儿。」).
    When the meaning is "不加限制, 隨意", it is not interchangeable. For instance, 儘管 (= 不加限制隨意去做), 儘著 (= 任憑), 儘教 (= 任意去做而不加管束), 儘讓 (= 任由、聽憑), 儘意隨心 (= 隨興任意).
    The above is the Taiwan Mandarin grammar that I know. I'm not sure if those rules regarding the distinction between jin4 and jin3 would still hold true in Mainland Mandarin.
    可見在大多數情況下,他們僅有微妙的語法結構和讀音上的區別,而沒有實義上的區別,我覺得合併比較好。我是實用主義的。
    在後面那些不可替換的情況下,如:應有盡有,盡在不言中……即使大陸規定簡體字「尽」是多音字,也不會有人錯讀成jin3。

    我還能拿出幾大支持合併的理由……

    首先,我不知是不是台灣大陸差別,你舉的「儘」的例子,很多在大陸的現代標準普通話中,是幾乎不用的,台灣的國語中會用嗎?
    你要儘想後再做決定 儘著 (= 任憑) 儘教 (= 任意去做而不加管束) 儘讓 (= 任由、聽憑) 儘意隨心 (= 隨興任意)

    然後!儘jin3 這個字的存在,還會造成意外的麻煩:他和另外一個表程度的副詞「僅」完全是同音的!再說遠一點,還有一個「緊」字呢,還有一個「謹」字呢!!我現在就說一句話:「你要jin3記住」你能判斷是哪個jin3嗎?!(原諒我對傳統中文真的有意見……)

    還有,「儘管」一詞,似乎還不止一個意思吧?!說實話,我覺得「儘」字就是個trouble maker。
    你儘管去做 = 不加限制隨意地去做
    儘管他很小心了,還是出錯了 = 雖然他很小心了,但仍出錯了

    若不願簡化、合併,那就實在不要怪很多人會寫錯字,電腦打字或搜索的時候一片混亂了……
     
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    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    I was not arguing whether jin4 and jin3 should be merged. My concern is whether they are treated as 異讀 (一意多音 and therefore there are such things as 正讀 and 俗讀) or as 破音字 (一字多意 or two different words if they are not merged). The OP asked: "Do both of these pronunciations have the same meanings/are they used in the same situations?" Those questions concern whether it is a 破音字. He also asked: "Which one would you say is the more common pronunciation?" It is a question about 正讀 and 俗讀.
    Hehola seems to argue that there are such things as 正讀 (Post #5: "尽量 should be jin3liang4") and 俗讀 (Post #2: "Many people say jin4liang4"). Meowstar on the other hand seems to suggest in Post #10 that 尽量 is a 破音字 with a slight difference in meaning if pronounced differently. The answer I gave is: In Taiwan, jin4liang4 and jin3liang4 are two different but synonymous words, both equally correct and formal. In my mind, 尽快 jin4kuai4 "at full speed" and jin3kuai4 "as fast as possible" are synonymous but nonetheless different expressions, so are jin4liang4 "to the full extent" and jin3liang4 "as much as possible". This subtle distinction can make a big difference in phrases like bu2jin4ran2 不盡然 "not fully/entirely so" (≠ *bu4jin3ran2 *不儘然 "not as much as such").
    儘管他很小心了,還是出錯了 = 雖然他很小心了,但仍出錯了
    As careful as he was, he still made a mistake = Although he was careful, he made a mistake. Note the "as...as" structure associated with jin3--the major reason why 尽管/儘管 reads as jin3guan3 and 尽量/儘量 "as much as possible" reads as jin3liang4.
     
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