I agree with Chip about 'internet ' in BE. And I also pronounce 'close ' and 'clothes ' differently (I speak Standard Southern British English).
Pronunciation: clothes
- Thread starter ampurdan
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Yes, massive difference.
It isn't. In very rapid and relaxed speech some of those intermediate sounds may get swallowed up (cf. gonna for going to, "jeet'chet" for Did you eat yet?), and for people like me the T in the middle of internet normally comes out sounding like a D, but both of the sounds in question are widely and generally pronounced.
I would not make that generalization about the internet.
There are big differences in regional pronunciation in the United States. In some parts of the country, people can neither hear nor pronounce the difference between pin and pen.
The difference between close and clothes is very subtle. I hear it, but to be honest, I think I hear it mostly because I know it's there.
The difference between close and clothes is very subtle. I hear it, but to be honest, I think I hear it mostly because I know it's there.
It is not very wise to make huge generalisations about any of these - to me.
I imagine lots of folk think they say "cloTHez" and probably would when reading it as a single word off a list - but in rapid speech there is a definite shift to "close" that folk wouldn't even notice. This is true of lots of words - people can do the "precise" articulation but do not always do it in rapid speech.
Even when I speak rapidly I make sure the word doesn't sound like "close". It annoys me when I hear others pronounce it that way.
Same here.
Many dictionaries allow for two pronunciations, here's Oxford Dictionaries:
clothes - definition of clothes in English | Oxford Dictionaries
clothes
/kləʊ(ð)z/
clothes - definition of clothes in English | Oxford Dictionaries
clothes
/kləʊ(ð)z/
I just checked Merriam-Webster. It confirms that "clothes" and "close" are pronounced identically. However, I might mention that it is an American dictionary.
I am surprised that there are Americans who pronounce them differently.
I am surprised that there are Americans who pronounce them differently.
Not so fast there
!From the Merriam Webster page for clothes Definition of CLOTHES
\ˈklōz also ˈklōthz\ They give one that is identical to close (verb) but also the one with the voiced th.
You won't hear it from the millions of (mainly) younger people who glottal stop nearly every t they encounter – including both ts in internet.
***
I love this (true) story in a newspaper feature of amusing things children say.
A mother shouted upstairs to her two little girls, 'Put your clothes on and come down for your breakfast'.
A few minutes later the elder child came downstairs and said 'I've put all my clothes on, mummy, but Debbie's only put one clo on.'
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Ditto.Even when I speak rapidly I make sure the word doesn't sound like "close". It annoys me when I hear others pronounce it that way.
<Added to this thread. Nat>
Hi all great teachers. I want to make sure from a point in English which is the word clothes. I know that the pronunciation in dictionary is /kləʊðz/ , but I always hear it /kləʊz/, so which one is correct? I mean shall I pronounce it with the sound ð or without it? specially that it is pretty difficult to pronounce it with it.
Hi all great teachers. I want to make sure from a point in English which is the word clothes. I know that the pronunciation in dictionary is /kləʊðz/ , but I always hear it /kləʊz/, so which one is correct? I mean shall I pronounce it with the sound ð or without it? specially that it is pretty difficult to pronounce it with it.
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I don't think that it matters much, Meerana. If you find kloʊðz hard to pronounce, don't worry about the 'th' sound. Your listener probably won't even notice that the 'th' sound is missing in your pronunciation of the word.
This has been discussed before. Some people omit the [ð], and that is common historically too, but it is quite normal (and I think more common) to pronounce the sound [ð].
Saying you can't hear it does not mean it isn't said. The word "close" is pronounced /kləʊz/, so /kləʊðz/ is correct.
English is difficult to pronounce for speakers of Arabic (and most other languages!).
I strongly agree with this. It is best to say things comfortably for you, even if that means "imperfect".
Nobody expects perfect. Native speakers make mistakes. Listeners often don't even notice mistakes.
Even if we notice them, we never correct them (unless we don't understand). That is rude.
The "clothes/close" case isn't a problem. Any place you would say "clothes", you would not say "close".
That may be the case for UK English. In US English, it’s the opposite. I’ve heard it with the [ð] a small number of times, so that pronunciation does exist, but the pronunciation without is vastly more common, used in all registers, and generally not considered incorrect or substandard. And this is distinct from words like “breathes” (for example), which may undergo reduction in rapid speed but are at least pronounced with the intention of pronouncing the [ð]. In the [ð]-less pronunciation of “clothes, there is never such an intention, so there’s nothing to reduce. It’s simply a homophone of the verb “close.” The two sound identical; phonetically, there is nothing at all between the vowel and the [z] — not even something that is not [ð] but not there in the verb “close.” The vowel is not lengthened, there is no constriction of any sort, etc. The tongue doesn’t do anything it wouldn’t do for the verb “close.” The two are 100% identical in both production and perception. In the case of this particular word, deletion — not reduction — of the [ð] has produced a new, stable, consistent standard pronunciation that is acquired directly by children. Those who do pronounce the [ð] may sometimes reduce it, and it may end up sounding different from the verb “close” even if there’s no actual [ð], but that’s an entirely different process, with different outcomes, from that of those who don’t even intend to pronounce the [ð], which is the vast majority of speakers as I said.
This seems to be a clear US/UK difference.
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I've told the following story before, so skip it if you remember it.
The Daily Mail has a feature where parents send in amusing things their children say.
One mother shouted upstairs to her two young daughters 'Put your clothes on and come down for your breakfast'.
After a few minutes the elder child came down and said 'I've put all my clothes on, Mummy, but Debbie's only put one clo on'.
The Daily Mail has a feature where parents send in amusing things their children say.
One mother shouted upstairs to her two young daughters 'Put your clothes on and come down for your breakfast'.
After a few minutes the elder child came down and said 'I've put all my clothes on, Mummy, but Debbie's only put one clo on'.
Clothes is pronounced as it looks, pronouncing the 'th' in the middle. Some people do not speak properly, even if they are native English speakers. It depends how you were brought up. If you want the correct pronunciation it is not CLOSE but CLOTHES.
Really? Let's hope it's MW living up to its nickname Mostly Wrong here.
What do you mean? Hasn’t it been made clear in this thread that the [ð]-less pronunciation is very common in US English? The one with [ð] also occurs, just less commonly. This and most of its entries show that Merriam-Webster is Mostly Well-informed (I don’t know why it gets a bad rap).
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I think it's the noun form of clothes where the th disappears to a greater or lesser extent. The verb use strikes me as one where the voiced th remains.
Yes, in the verb the [ð] is never omitted in my experience — at least not consciously.
My opinion:
I do not think that "th" is dropped intentionally. If a person would intentionally drop "th" in speech, I think they would drop it in writing also. But we don't see that.
I agree that the "th" sound can be very hard to hear -- sometimes impossible to hear, depending on the speaker, the sentence, the listener, the ambient sound, the nearness of any tugboats...
That makes this one of many sounds in English that might be un-hearable in conversational speech.
It is definitely dropped intentionally by many people — by which I mean they’re not trying to pronounce the <th>. For those people (I’m one of them), it’s simply a homophone of the verb “close.” There are many letters we don’t pronounce but still write: we don’t pronounce the second “b” in “bomb,” but we don’t spell it “bom.”
Just as we pronounce the "b" in the noun "number" but never in the adjectives "number" and "numbest" or in the noun "beach comber", we (where I live) pronounce the voiced "th" in the verb "clothes" but never in the noun "clothes". The voiced "th" is not a sound that we could inadvertently omit before a "z" sound.
The WR dictionary supports that, listing two "correct" pronunciations for "clothes" in AE, with and without the "th":
clothes /kloʊz, kloʊðz/
clothes (klōz, klōᵺz)
Maybe that is my confusion. I don't normally "try to pronounce" English words. When I speak, I don't even know what words I am using, much less how I pronounce them. To discuss questions in the WR forums, I may intentionally pronounce an English word. But do I do it the same as I do it in sentences?
A related word is "clothespin". I don't pronounce "th" in that word. Yet the WR dictionary shows three "correct" pronunciations:
clothes•pin /ˈkloʊzˌpɪn, ˈkloʊðz-, ˈkloʊs-/
clothes•pin (klōz′pin′, klōᵺz′-, klōs′-),
I pronounce it to rhyme with "nose pin".
Intriguing! Is /s/ really an option at the end of the "clothes" part?
Not for me.
Well, I'm a native American English teacher and I say the voiced "th" and the vocal "se" (pronounced like "Z") just afterwards. like "the" and "Z" very "squished together". Saying "close" for "clothes" would be like saying "whiff" for ''with"! 🙃
I tend to say a "pointy" pronounced "t" for names like Martin and Martinez while many latinos use a glottal stop for Martin but not for Martinez. I don't say "inner net" for "internet" but maybe it's because I have taught English for so long. I don't say "egication" for "education" nor do I say "innertain" for "entertain". What do you do? I'd be curious to find out !
I agree on each and every point!
About clothes, I definitely don't drop the 'th' - it's quite prominent in fact. I think a student can say 'clothes' like the verb 'close'. That would be much better than saying 'closes', which sounds silly.