SupercromCitado por pajandrum
This is SO bizarre.
Having enjoyed this conversation immensely, I am suddenly compelled to ask two questions:
(1) Why is a discussion about the pronunciation of English in a forum about Spanish Grammar?
(2) How come I, a non-speaker of Spanish, found it?
I think it would be a good idea, but when I first read this thread I had a reservation. There is a difference between the accepted phonetic symbols that are traditionally used to represent sounds in a language and the actual sounds people make.panjandrum said:For me, the difficulty is that although I know a standard set of pronunciation symbols exists, I would need to go on a course to understand what they mean. Then I would need to keep using them to keep familiar with them. I really would like to become expert in phonetics - I sing multi-lingually (For example, I sing (with a choir) a song in Puerto Rican Spanish. Our Spanish-speakers are OK on European Spanish pronunciation, but not Puerto Rican.) and would love to learn a multi-lingual symbology so that I could discuss how different languages should sound, but I fear I no longer have the brain-space to cope
I humbly suggest (having been here for all of a fortnight) that this forum could make a good start by including the standard international phonetic symbols and, for a number of different languages, include text examples and spoken examples.
It would involve hard work, both for the forum and for forum-users, but perhaps worthwhile?
Hola Panj,panjandrum said:Is that IPA stuff in the link (thanks Cuchu, saved me hunting for something that I didn't even know the name for) able to get around the problems that timpeac raised? As a non-expert in this area, I had kind of assumed it did.
I know that most dictionaries use reference words from their own language to illustrate their pronunciation symbology, but I naively believed that the people who had invented all those weird and incomprehensible symbols had done so in order to get around that problem, and many others no doubt.
I rather suspect the number and complexity of the IPA symbols would be an almost insurmountable obstacle to their use in this forum. Do any of you very wise and professionally-linguistic people speak IPA I wonder.
Hola Panj,panjandrum said:Cuchu,
That all sounds wise
As I thought about it yesterday I realised that to take on anything substantial in this area would be like starting to compile the OED - turning into a decades-long labour. There must, you would think, be other sources of the kind of "stuff" we're talking about.
Thanks - Panj
True for a Spanish-speaker! I sing music from around the world in a small choir. One of our songs is in Puerto Rican Spanish. A few weeks ago we had the delight of having our Spanish Spanish pronunciation corrected - a lot - by a Venezuelan Spanish speaker from the audience. He ended up saying that really it didn't matter a great deal, smiled disarmingly, and left.cuchuflete said:Pronunciation in Spanish is generally straightforward, with a limited number of vowels, and not too much variation in the way most words are pronounced.
I couldn't possibly argue with that - and my own local variants add a lot to the confusionEnglish is a dog's breakfast of variability. .........
I think that IPA would be best. However, we would need a little note explaining to people that the symbols traditionally used in dictionaries to represent their language are not necessarily the same as those which describe the actual sound they make. Each language has developped its own tendencies for always representing certain sounds with certain symbols even if the pronunciation has moved on, or differs regionally.cuchuflete said:Hola Panj,
Please don't take my stumbling explorations as a negative response to the idea... I don't know enough to have an opinion. Pronunciation and words have a curious habit of traveling together, so they belong in these forums.
Questions include....do we need a pronunciation area for each language, or is this a topic for which a single foro should try to serve all comers, or do we use the existing forums for the occasional question about how things should and do sound? Also, is IPA the most useful standard or should we continue to have foreros "invent" their own examples? The latter is what often happens, and it seems to work, but IPA might be better.
Pronunciation in Spanish is generally straightforward, with a limited number of vowels, and not too much variation in the way most words are pronounced. English is a dog's breakfast of variability. I look forward to reading and considering more ideas from fellow foreros about whether we need an additional forum or forums, or simply a suggested place among the current ones to discuss this.
You say "tome ay toe" and I say "tome ah toe".........