Pronunciation: neutral tone

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by quitecool, Apr 1, 2013.

Tags:
  1. quitecool New Member

    English
    hi!

    I'd like to ask what is meant by the neutral tone?

    Like for eg 东西 and 商量 and 妹妹 etc

    I understand in these cases the 2nd character is neutral in tone.

    What does that mean and how is it pronounced differently from regular use? Is it just a softer/smaller/faster sound?

    Thanks!
     
  2. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie Senior Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    Generally, a neutral sound is softer and shorter but the main thing is when Xi1 Xi2 Xi3 Xi4 are neutralised, they all sound the same as Xi (ie, there is no tone in it).

    Welcome to the forum, quitecool! (That's a cool name!:))
     
  3. quitecool New Member

    English
    Thanks for the warm welcome!

    I'm still not sure how to go about pronouncing it.

    Does anyone have recommendations of the best site to check out mandarin pronunciations?
     
  4. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie Senior Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    Here is a link for you to start with:
    http://lost-theory.org/chinese/phonetics/
    The way to use it may not be apparent at first, so play with it and you'll get the hang of it. For each syllable that you click, the first of the sounds presented is the neutral sound.

    You can find many similar web pages by googling for something like: Chinese sounds/ Chinese syllables/ Chinese pinyin, etc.
     
  5. tarlou Senior Member

    Chinese
    I think the the first sounds in xiaolijie's link are the 1st tone:(... In fact, I think neutral tone does not exist separately. When you try to say a single character in neutral tone, it just sounds like an average of 1st tone and 4th tone (or maybe other tones depending on the context, it maybe pronounced in different ways according to some materials I've seen before...). Only when it is next to other characters with tones, it can be found to be significantly lighter.

    Google translate can pronounce 东西 商量 妹妹 accurately with neutral tones.

    PS: People in north China do a lot of neutral tones. However, some people in the south and abroad are more likely to do 商shang1量liang2.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  6. Youngfun

    Youngfun Senior Member

    Bắc Kinh
    Wu Chinese & Italian
    For me it's shang1 liang4.

    妹妹 with light tone. 东西 with light tone when it means "thing"; but dong1 xi1 when it means "east-west".
     
  7. xiaolijie

    xiaolijie Senior Member

    UK
    English (UK)
    Yes, you're right. With a quick look, I mistakenly took the one without tone mark as the neutral sound...
     
  8. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    Happened to find this thread while searching WR.
    Just want to say that, to me, 商量 is shang1liang2 or shang1liang(light tone).
     
  9. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    I know some Southerner would say shang1liang2, but I don't think it will be count as "standard Mandarin" of Mainland China. If someone uses this liang2 tong in a Putonghua exam, he/she will lose score.
     
  10. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    I’m not sure about the standard of the Putonghua test.
    Wordreference labels it as shang1liang2 and so do some other dictionaries, such as 现代汉语大词典.
     
  11. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    I hope the Putonghua test is not designed to discriminate against certain regional demographics (e.g., southerners) and fails to see if there is sufficient linguistic or etymological justification for it. Otherwise, it will go against the very principle of Putong 普通 (普及通用).
     
  12. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    shang1liang2 does sound quite strange to my ears (though I understand southerners may do it, too). 现代汉语词典 has marked it as the neutral tone. In fact, Taiwan's 国语辞典 does the same.
    So I would agree with SuperXW.

    I don't think etymology is a good way to tell how a word "should" be pronounced, since things are irregular. I think the basic idea of 普通话 is to use a real dialect (based on real 采样 from somewhere in 承德, 普通话标准音采集地 - 维基百科,自由的百科全书) instead of a theoretical one. There were attempts of using a theoretical standard (e.g. 老国音), and it failed. It's definitely a kind of "discrimination" -- those from the place of 承德 may not need to learn anything at all. And it cannot be without "discrimination" -- as long as it's a kind of Mandarin, southerners get more things to learn. But there is no other easy way.

    I think most ordinary people learn to speak the language by listening instead of by looking up words in dictionaries (few people have the knowledge/interest/time). For those whose native language is very different from 普通话, I don't think shang1liang2 vs shang1liang can make a big difference in the difficulty. If they live in the mainland style Mandarin environment, shang1liang is probably the tone that they are more used to. In fact, I think many southerners (including seniors, including those who don't do any retroflex sounds) have no problem with this word, as I didn't hear any strange thing like that when I listen to talks/lectures/TV programs from them, though obviously shang1liang2 does exist as seen in this post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  13. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    Maybe a great number of southerners would accept 商量liang2, but it is required to be pronounced with the neutral tone in a Putonghua test (link1 link2).
    Since Putonghua is based on Beijing dialect, one thing to be avoid is to "mix" different standards into one, otherwise there will be no point to "set a standard".
    By appointing one set of pronunciation as the "standard", at least one group can do it perfectly. If we accept all the common pronunciations, the learners would not be able to tell which one to learn, remember and use. We can find too many words with different common sounds to be evaluated, not only 商量.
    If one pronounces all words in a sentence strictly with Putonghua standard but using "shang1liang2" instead of "shang1liang0", it would be weird.
    I will never say "shang1liang2" is "wrong", but it will be unnatural to mix it into the style chosen by Putonghua test.
     
  14. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    Then, may I ask why both Wordreference and 现代汉语大词典 give shang1liang2? Would this be a mistake or would it be anything else I don’t know very well, like certain practice of marking tones when compiling a dictionary?
     
  15. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    I'm not sure either. Wordreference cannot be taken as a formal Chinese dictionary. And some dictionaries don't mark tone sandhi.
    I'll expect the differences anyway. If all the rules are the same, then we won't have more than one dictionary, and the Putonghua test won't have to publish its own guidance.
     
  16. Youngfun

    Youngfun Senior Member

    Bắc Kinh
    Wu Chinese & Italian
    读liang4的,普通话不标菌的淫围观着……
     
  17. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    For me, using dictionaries is actually a good way to check the pronunciation of words. And it’s very convenient and doesn’t require much special knowledge. If a person living in the South doesn’t have a northerner around who speaks good Putonghua, it would be convenient for him or her to check in a dictionary when in doubt.

    All right. I think if we are not to take the Putonghua test, it seems we don’t need to care too much about this word. And even if an examinee pronounces it as shang1liang2, I wondered if the examiner of the Putonghua test would really hear or notice anything wrong. However, I think we should still follow your suggestion to pronounce those 轻声词 as required by the test.

    PS, @Youngfun sorry, I was searching for information in the forum to answer another question and happened to find this thread and then replied.
     
  18. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    Yes, it doesn't matter if we are not taking the test.
    However, if we ARE taking the test, I'm pretty sure the examiner would hear the difference. The difference between 2nd and the neutral tone is very obvious, even I would notice it.
     
  19. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    I tried saying it myself and could hardly hear the difference, especially when I read it fast. But when I read it slowly, there was some difference. If I were to take the test, I think maybe I would naturally read it fast. Actually, I have never said that shang1liang is wrong. I just think that shang1liang2 is also possible, according to some dictionaries.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  20. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    商量 = 商榷酌量
    酌量怎麼讀? 2?4?0?
    The overwhelming majority of people in Taiwan say 商量 liang2 and 酌量 liang2.
    漢典 says 酌量 liang4 and Youngfun says 商量 liang4 (see #6).
    商量的輕聲「量」, 原音(underlying pronunciation)究竟為何? 是台灣認為的二聲, 還是 Youngfun 的四聲? 古代「商量」有好多個意思, 我找到最早商量(=商榷酌量)的例子來自吳語區, 所以Youngfun的發音特別引我注意。
    读liang4的,或許(I'm not sure, only perhaps)從歷史演化的角度來看是最"标菌"的.
    I agree. Of course, there is a difference if one listens carefully, but in an environment where almost everybody says 商量 liang2 (e.g., Taiwan), our brains simply do not make a conscious distinction between 商量 shang˥ 55 liang˧˥ (35) and 商量 shang˥ (55) liang (3). This is different from 兴趣 xing˥˩ (51) qu˥˩ (51) vs. 兴趣 xing ˥˩ (51) qu (3). There is a clear drop in the start pitch for the neutral tone 趣 (i.e., qu˥˩ 51 vs. qu 3) and therefore a regional accent is immediately detected. Yes, 兴趣 xing4qu has a regional accent and we can detect it in a second! 商量 shang1liang does not appear to have a strong accent and therefore more like a 通語. I guess it is a phenomenon hard for the northerners to fathom.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  21. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    酌量 is zhuo2liang in 现代汉语词典, and zhuo2liang2 in 汉语大词典. (Of course, zhuo2liang4 also exists, but it has a different meaning 适量 as in 酌量添加食盐.) I'm not sure about why 汉典 uses zhuo2liang4.

    商量 is shang1liang in 现代汉语词典, and shang1liang2 in other dictionaries learntheword has provided.
    I may also say shang1liang4, but that is because the default (or closest) tone is the 4th tone if one wants to recover the neutral tone. I believe many many people do the same for the same reason.

    I think this is inaccurate, or maybe a different pronunciation from mainland Mandarin. A neutral tone after a 4th tone is lower than you described:
    The Taiwan/mainland difference may also contribute:
    The 2nd tone in mainland Mandarin has a higher pitch than in Taiwan Mandarin (35 vs 23 according to this). So a neutral tone is significantly different from a high pitched 2nd tone to my ears. However, a neutral tone (3) may be similar to a 2nd tone (23) to your ears.
     
  22. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    That makes the pitch drop even more noticeable. My point was exactly about a pitch drop noticeable to our "southern" ears.
    Uh-huh, the underlying tone in your mind is the 4th tone, not the 2nd tone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
  23. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    Oh, I see. I think you are right, there is indeed a pitch drop.
    Then I don't know why the neutral tone sounds like a 4th tone to my ears. Maybe that's because the tone "shape" matters more than than the pitch to northerners as there are many stressed/unstressed/shortened/swallowed syllables here.
    Probably. I'm not sure. If shang1liang4 is called as "underlying tone" in my mind, I'd say it's affected by the neutral tone pronunciation that I usually hear, and so it does not imply the 4th tone is the correct/default one in my region/dialect.
     
  24. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    The neutral tone is a short syllable, not much of a pitch contour to judge by. So the most decisive and easily detected clue for us, the presumed stereotypical southerners, is the start pitch of a syllable in relevance to that of the preceding one, especially in utterances of a fast speed (faster speed ==> shorter duration ==> less clear for pitch contour) or of a lazy, lifeless, flattened intonation that relatively lacks 抑揚頓挫. And I guess that's what learntheworld meant:
     
  25. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    To be more clear, by “it”, I meant the word shang1liang2, and I’m not sure if this applies to other words as well, i.e. those words with a 1st tone followed by a 2nd tone. Actually, what has been discussed is very professional and is beyond my ability. Hope you would enjoy your discussion.
     
  26. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Can you tell them apart in a fast speech: 清明節 qing1ming2jie2 vs. 清明節 qing1mingjie2?
    Oh, of course you can if you listen carefully. So how should I phrase it? Yup, can you EASILY tell them apart in a fast speech?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  27. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    No, I don’t think I can, but it’s a three-character word, and I’m not sure if it would become another matter.
     
  28. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Well, will 商量商量 vs. 商量一下 make a difference for you?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  29. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    如果普通话考试要求朗读指定文字,那么对所有[一声+轻声]和[一声+二声],别人都应该能清楚听出区别。
    如果考生的语速快得让考官都无法听清,那就属于语速过快,是考生的问题,扣分是理所应当的。
    这就相当于你考你汉字笔顺,但你非写连笔字,总不能不让扣分。
    在自由说话环节,有时考生语速较快,无法保证每一个音都非常清晰。这环节是要接近现实情境,偶尔语速较快是正常的。但是对于平时一直无法分清二声和轻声的人,相信就不只是一两个词的问题。只要语速降低为正常级别,总能听出口音的。
     
  30. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    我是在討論識辨聽力, 不是朗讀發音。當商量2和商量0快速到難以區分時, 用那同樣的速度, 我還可以輕易區分興趣4和興趣0。也就是說, 興趣0比商量0更令我「豎耳」。興趣0既沒列入「必讀輕聲詞語表」, 也沒列入「可輕讀詞語表」, 這種既不「必」, 也不「可」, 令人「豎耳」的輕聲, 不比商量0那麼容易接受。
     
  31. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    我还是觉得有可能是发音问题导致听感不同。(**以普通话标准**)轻声、二声、或四声读得不准确。否则即使读得很快也不应分不清商量2、商量0,清明2节、清明0节。
    而兴趣0像兴趣4并不需要读得特别快。

    Google translate 发音(第二遍会减速读,可仔细听):商量 伤亮 伤梁
    你听到的是什么声调?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  32. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    北方发音起调音值更加自由,四声不必从5起调,调值31既可能是四声也可能是轻声,从理论上就无法分辨。
    “兴趣”的问题我已经在另一贴中说过了,fyl也列过论据了,一声及四声后轻声呈降调已经是公认现象了,而没有一项研究说会变为二声的。为什么不容易接受?
    所以我无法理解你是怎样做到的:"當商量2和商量0快速到難以區分時, 用那同樣的速度, 我還可以輕易區分興趣4和興趣0。"除非你对“四声/轻声”的定义标准和我不同。
     
  33. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    是 (1) 商量0, (2) 傷亮 4 (3) 傷梁2 嗎?
    (1)(3)相當清楚, (2) 我得想片刻, 我的直覺是輕聲, 可是音調又稍下降, 也可能是四聲, 想來想去, 最後我把它列為四聲。要是我讀四聲的話, 起音就會高些, 降幅就會大些。倘若是獨立單詞的朗讀, 而我是評審的話, 我就認為其抑揚頓挫不夠清晰, 扣分。

    Note: 我心中的輕聲「趣 」in 興趣 是比你的「傷亮」的「亮」起音還低的音。
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  34. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    个人感觉:
    这个Shang1liang2shang1liang2 和shang1liangshang1liang 之间的区别我会察觉到,
    但shang1liang2 和 shang1liang 的区别我就不那么容易察觉到,
    商量liang2一下 和 商量liang一下 之间的区别我也不容易察觉到。


    读得过快,考官都听不清了,那自然可能会扣分。但读得过慢了,把一个词拆开一个字一个字慢慢的读,可能也会被扣分吧。
    可是即使是正常的语速,我也觉得shang1liang2和shang1liang的区别不大。

    我个人确实觉得区别不太,尤其是在读得快一些的时候。
     
  35. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    我说来说去都是在说,考试时的“正常语速”,一定会有明显区别……
    连二声轻声都听不清的话,还有哪个音调能听清?这试还怎么考?:(
     
  36. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    不好意思,不太清楚这句话是什么意思。

    我是在说“商量”这个词。是否听出区别、是否扣分,也许普通话测试的考官更有发言权。
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  37. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    什麼跟什麼, 誰說輕聲不降調了, 誰說輕聲變二聲了? 說得莫明其妙。 既然你還沒弄懂我在說什麼, 讓我再解釋一遍:

    興4趣4 ==> 興51趣51 (聲調清晰), 興51趣41 (交談中intonation高低起伏可能產生的自然現象), 興51趣31(談話中可能出現, 但在朗讀單字 wordlist in isolation 時還這麼讀, 就不夠標準清晰, 得扣分).

    興4趣0 ==> 興51趣1 or 興51趣21

    興4趣4 和 興4趣0 的重要區別特徵就是 pitch drop (趣0 與 趣4 或 興4 比, 起調上有明顯的落差: 趣4的起音是高音(5 or 4), 趣0的是低音(1 or 2), 它們一高一低, 有天壤之別)。另外, 輕聲趣0是短音, 既使它有降調現象(e.g., 趣21)也是時間短暫, 幅度不明顯 (2-1=1 small difference), 不比與四聲趣4, 或與四聲興4之間的起音落差明顯(5-1=4 or 5-2=3; 4 or 3 is significantly bigger than 2-1=1)

    用同樣的道理, 我們可以來分析商量:
    商1量2 ==> 商55量35
    商1量0 ==> 商55量3 or 商55量41
    商1量2 的量2 (量35) 與 商1量0的量0 (量3 or 量41) 起音若不是相同(3-3=0), 就是差距甚微(4-3=1), 靠起音差異是無法輕易區分的。能夠依靠的線索就只剩下音節長短和pitch contour within the syllable。 輕聲的音節很短, 正常速度的話, 長短還好分別, 念快的話, 每個音節都是短的, 短中尋找更短的, 就成了一個挑戰。短音節內部音調變化本來就難以憑耳力察覺, 否則為何語言學家只用單一音高(如, 商55量3的量3)而不理會其內部音調變化(如, 商55量41的量41)來標明輕聲? 否則何必用機器測試來「證明」輕聲內部還是有音值變化? 換句話說, 若拿掉起音落差這個重要線索, 剩下的線索會因速度加快而難以單憑耳力憑判。

    所以對我而言, 興趣0 的輕聲比商量0的輕聲 更顯明, 更容易察覺。
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  38. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    为什么要靠起音判断呢?二声和轻声的尾音明显不同。
    商量0中量的降调我相信很多人都能听得清清楚楚,只不过没有四声那么陡,但有的词比如椅子0的子我就分不出升降。
     
  39. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    我上面不是解釋了嗎, 商量0和商量2的起音差異不大, 必須用音節長短和尾音來判斷。平常還不打緊, 要是遇到有些人說話不僅快, 又像唱歌似的, 你認為明顯, 在我耳裡就不明顯了。譬如:商55量34些44事41 可能出現在一串話中, 這個量34是二聲。商55量43些44事41, 也可能, 這個量43是輕聲, 這個人的輕聲降調不大是因為預期高音「些」, 他有flattened intonation。你或許會認為量34和量43差異很大, 但我倒認為差異太小--任何音值差距小於2的都不算有顯著的差異。

    說你的「傷亮」吧(#31)! 我認為那個傷亮語調「不合標準」, 你若把相同的發音掉反過來成為「亮傷」, 我就認為那個亮傷「合乎標準」了, 這說明什麼呢?這說明起調和前音相對關係的重要性, 也就是我一直在強調的「起調線索」.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  40. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    针对彩色字提出异议:
    先看一看你列出来的调值。
    413121 更相似,
    35341 明显不如上面相似。

    北方口音(包括普通话测试标准)只要是降调就是四声,声调就是二声,不看起调(我反复说了北方口音起调灵活)。
    21降得太少不好判断,但31还是算四声的,35算二声。
     
  41. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    听不清在考试中算错是正常的。
    有时不是“听不出来”,而是“听得出来,但符合普通话(北方)发音习惯”。轻声调值听出3、32、31都符合习惯,但听出34、35就不符合习惯,会被判错。这就是fyl那些引文所讲的事情。
    一般来说,平音后略微升降调可能难以区分,但34和43这俩个升降音颠倒的还是能听分出的,毕竟南辕北辙。
     
  42. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    21 分明就不是四聲。生55氣21來35 是錯誤的發音, 會被理解為 升55起21來35。北方口音真能靈活到「生氣21來」還算標準? 真難想像。
    不31倒214翁55 也不標準, 扣分!!
     
  43. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    所谓“起调灵活”、“抑扬顿挫”并不是乱来。强调的字会大幅提高起调,不重要的字会低音带过。“生气来”不make sense,不能做例子。“不倒翁”的“不”字也没有弱化的理由。
    我举个例子:"他就说……",按北方口音,“就”字起调往往是31,到不了51。但会标四声。
    如果“就”严格发51甚至更高,“就”字变成了强调,意思会成为“他非要说……”。
    如果想强调“他说”而不是“别人说”,那么“他”的起调可以更高,和“就”的起调差异又增大了。
    不管“就”起调如何,只要是降调,我们都会认为是四声。
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  44. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    沒看出跟國語有什麼不同, 哪裡特別「靈活」的地方。

    Anyway, 我說了這麼一大串, 是要說:有人以輕音的起音為線索, 有人以其tone contour為準據, 這個差異, 可能導致為什麼「商量0」和「商量2」對某些人來說好像沒多大區分, 對另一些人來說就覺得不可思議。
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  45. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    就是说,如果在“普通话水平测试”中,题目或者考官要求你“用正常语速朗读:商量”,那么shang1liang2,shang1liang0的区别应该很明显,不明显的话就是发音不清。
    我不是考官,但也考过试。而且对北方人来说这是common sense,也是合理推断。连普通人都能听确定有分别,更何况考官呢?而且,轻声和四声混淆是有调查依据的,但哪有报告说轻声和二声会混淆呢?凭什么怀疑考官会听不出分别呢?

    在现实中,我们用不着说谁对谁错,扣不扣分。对每种语速、每一个字的细微差别,我们没能力也没精力分析清楚。但“口音不同”,是大家都能听出来的,其实就是那一点点分别的综合体现。假如是让你“选出与自己口音不同的句子”,相信也很容易做到。
     
  46. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    谢谢您的解释。
    不过之前我也说过了,我认为快速读 shang1liang2 和 shang1liang 的话,区别对我而言不容易察觉,即使是以正常语速读,区别也是不大的,至少对于我自己而言是如此。当然,听没听出区别、扣不扣分,就要看考官的了。北方朋友的意见可以作为参考,也很有价值,但不代表就等同于考官的意见。

    这似乎只是您的猜测。

    因为我自己亲耳听到 shang1liang2 和 shang1liang 之间的区别不大,认为不会导致扣分,所以我认为考官也是这样想。当然,我可能是错的,也可能是对的。也就是说考官可能不会这样想,也可能会这样想。

    谢谢您的说明。
     
  47. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    興趣的興並非不重要的字, 不應該輕讀,相反的, 它很可能是個強調的字, 因此會高調起音, 如此的話, 「起調靈活」與我討論的無關。

    我想趁此機會強調:我心中的「輕讀」和「輕聲」不是等號。「興趣」的四聲「趣」輕讀算是正常 (有點類似SupperXW舉的四聲「就」輕讀的例子), 當作輕聲才讓我「豎耳」。
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  48. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    我上贴只是说你之前举的“生气来”“不倒翁”不是合适的例子。
    列举"起调灵活"的例子是为说明为什么北方口音起调无法作为判断四声的标准。即北方四声字不一定从5或4起调。
    这是为了回应你所说的:“興趣0比商量0更令我「豎耳」”的理由——“興4趣4 和 興4趣0 的重要區別特徵就是 pitch drop (趣0 與 趣4 或 興4 比, 起調上有明顯的落差: 趣4的起音是高音(5 or 4), 趣0的是低音(1 or 2), 它們一高一低, 有天壤之別)”
    至于“兴趣”的“趣”字应该读哪个音,另一个帖子有讨论,北方是都可以。
    南北差异是无需否认的现实,我一直强调我讲的是北方话和普通话测试的特点。你们在其他地方另有判断方法,比如更重视起调、对升降不太敏感,引发不同的问题,那很正常。

    @learntheworld 如果像你所怀疑的,考官很难分辨商量liang是二声还是轻声,那么“普通话水平测试”中把它列为“必须读轻声的字”就有些莫名其妙了,因为考官根本就难以分辨。
    所以我认为我是“合理推断”,你是“无端怀疑”。不用那么客气,就事论事而已。
     
  49. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    似乎你還是沒弄懂我的意思。或者我還是看不懂你究竟在說什麼。

    興趣的興不可輕讀, 是高起音。

    興趣的趣可以輕讀, 國語的自然對話中, 隨說話者的 intonation 的不同, 可能產出趣54, 趣53 , 趣43, 趣42, 甚至是趣31, 這叫作「輕讀」, 不是「輕聲」。這個輕讀的四聲趣, 還是算作「四聲」。

    興趣的趣若讀「輕聲」, 我指的是非常短促, 低起音的趣1, 或趣21.

    興趣的興是高起音, 興趣的輕聲趣是低起音, 這一高一低是我指的 pitch drop (其起音比前字的起音顯著降低 a significant drop in the start pitch of a syllable in relation to that of the preceding syllable)。

    我們在討論的是「趣」讀輕聲的情況。你說「北方都可以」難道是說北方四聲後的輕聲也可以高起音? 若果真如此, 我可要說那是不標準的輕聲, 扣分!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
  50. learntheworld Senior Member

    Chinese
    好的,您可以这样认为。我还是持自己的意见。
     

Share This Page

Loading...