Punjabi (East): ghaTnaa

marrish

Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
I have a concise question about the word ghaTnaa in Punjabi. Which verb is usually used with it, like in Hindi they say ghaTnaa ghaTit huii hai.
 
  • panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    I had to look up घटित to discover that it means "happening." I'm assuming you don't mean "ghaṭṭRNā" as in "kam honā," correct? More like "hadsā" here?

    In written Punjabi, I believe that you could use the verb "vāparnā" which means "to occur." I very rarely hear people say it, but that's not to say that people don't use it. I'd probably use "hoRNā."
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^Lovely, thank you very much, vaaparnaa is what I was looking for. No, I didn't mean ''ghaTTNRaa''.
    So, I assume that one can say ਮੇਰੇ ਨਾਲ ਘਟਨਾ ਵਾਪਰੀ ਹੈ mere naal k_haTnaa vaaprii hai?
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Thanks. Well, I didn't even ask about Pakistani Punjabi and I'd be happier to know its usage in the Indian part of the Punjab - and that is why it is reflected in the thread title and the choice of script:). Your sources are right, though.

    vaaparnaa... any hints toward the lineage of this nice verb?
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I must confess I am struggling to follow this thread! Perhaps I am having an off day.

    Is "ghaTnaa" (k_haTNRaa) to become less? And what does "vaaparnaa" mean? Could PG SaaHib or your good self quote something from Punjabi literature with occurrences of these words.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Your enunciation is very surprising!

    Yes, k_haTNRaa is to decrease, but I think I was clear to state above that not this word was the subject of the thread. The subject of this thread is the verb which can be used with the noun k_haTnaa (ghaTnaa) (an incident, an accident, see Hindi) (where there is a dental nasal preceding the final -aa, in contrast with the retroflex one in the said verb). PG SaaHib has also elucidated in post #2 that vaaparnaa means to occur.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    I don't have any literature handy, but when I find something I'll be sure to post it. I will reiterate that though I did hear these words used in East Punjab, "vaaparnaa" sounds a bit bookish.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I must confess I am struggling to follow this thread! Perhaps I am having an off day.

    Is "ghaTnaa" (k_haTNRaa) to become less? And what does "vaaparnaa" mean? Could PG SaaHib or your good self quote something from Punjabi literature with occurrences of these words.
    I share your hope that PG SaaHib will quote some instances of this word (and the etymology which I was curious about), but in the meantime I came across something weird from the site you once quoted, where a small article is published that is terribly difficult to read through (for me at least) so I hope someone can read it and give me their views about whether it is worth reading.
    http://pa.girgit.chitthajagat.in/shabdavali.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-02-05T23:36:00%2B05:30&max-results=2&start=2&by-date=false
    It is written in Hindi in the Gurmukhi script. I believe it deals with the etymology.
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    Interestingly, "vaaparnaa" means "to use" in Gujarati! I wonder whether the etymologies are different or the same.
     

    hindiurdu

    Senior Member
    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    Wow, I learnt a new word - vaaparna! All of a sudden I feel like I have heard this in Punjabi movies before! Btw marrish sahab, isn't "ghaTna ghaTit hui" a zabardasti ka construction. Wouldn't it normally just be "ghaTna ghaTi"?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I share your hope that PG SaaHib will quote some instances of this word (and the etymology which I was curious about), but in the meantime I came across something weird from the site you once quoted, where a small article is published that is terribly difficult to read through (for me at least) so I hope someone can read it and give me their views about whether it is worth reading.
    http://pa.girgit.chitthajagat.in/shabdavali.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-02-05T23:36:00%2B05:30&max-results=2&start=2&by-date=false
    It is written in Hindi in the Gurmukhi script. I believe it deals with the etymology.

    Thank you for the above. My feeling is that "ghaTnaa" (event) is not TheTh Punjabi but has entered Eastern Punjabi via Hindi in more recent times. A comparable example in West Punjab would be "rishvat" (bribe) for "va_hDDii" although the time scale is likely to be much different in the case of Urdu words entering Punjabi. I have n't heard of or come across "vaaparnaa" in writing, but then I have n't read much Punjabi literature.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Wow, I learnt a new word - vaaparna! All of a sudden I feel like I have heard this in Punjabi movies before! Btw marrish sahab, isn't "ghaTna ghaTit hui" a zabardasti ka construction. Wouldn't it normally just be "ghaTna ghaTi"?
    When you will have forgotten this word there is going to be no need of starting a thread like I had to!
    Since Hindi is the source, as QP SaaHib rightly says, I think it is not off topic to discuss ghaTit too. My exposure to spoken Hindi is deplorably low but in the written language I encountered ghaTnaa ghaTit huii a lot. Interesting to see that the verb ghaTnaa can be used this way.
     

    hindiurdu

    Senior Member
    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    ^I apologize for my own lack of knowledge. Upon looking for examples, I see this everywhere! How extraordinary. Are there any other similar-form verbs used like this? ghaTna, haTna (to be removed or to get out of the way), baTna (to be divided), raTna (to memorize, slightly slangish). We never do these:

    Cheez haTi → Cheez haTit hui
    Khet baTaa → Khet baTit hua
    Kitaab raTi → Kitaab raTit hui

    I wonder where this weird ghaTit form is coming from. Thank you for the thread.
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    I think - I might be wrong - that "rachit" exists (corresponding to the verb "rachnaa"). At least, if someone were to use it, it wouldn't cause a raised eyebrow from me. Not many such verbs, though.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^I apologize for my own lack of knowledge. Upon looking for examples, I see this everywhere! How extraordinary. Are there any other similar-form verbs used like this? ghaTna, haTna (to be removed or to get out of the way), baTna (to be divided), raTna (to memorize, slightly slangish). We never do these:

    Cheez haTi → Cheez haTit hui
    Khet baTaa → Khet baTit hua
    Kitaab raTi → Kitaab raTit hui

    I wonder where this weird ghaTit form is coming from. Thank you for the thread.

    I might be wrong, but does n't this "-it" suffix impart a meaning to the word that is equivalent to the past participle of the English verb. I don't believe it is added to any word willy-nilly.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I might be wrong, but does n't this "-it" suffix impart a meaning to the word that is equivalent to the past participle of the English verb. I don't believe it is added to any word willy-nilly.
    I share your feelings and the chance to acknowledge it has happened
    only because the forum's astonishing tangents that reveal (cf. Alfaaz' inkishaafii! I'd rather say inkishaafaanah) things one had't taken into account! Very puzzling, this -it part. I agree with what you say, QP SaaHib. rachit is surely there. There may be this kind of words that gave birth to Hindi infinitives.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I share your feelings and the chance to acknowledge it has happened
    only because the forum's astonishing tangents that reveal (cf. Alfaaz' inkishaafii! I'd rather say inkishaafaanah) things one had't taken into account! Very puzzling, this -it part. I agree with what you say, QP SaaHib. rachit is surely there. There may be this kind of words that gave birth to Hindi infinitives.

    In Urdu, we say "shaadii-dhudah" for "married", the latter term being the past participle in English. The normal Urdu/Hindi past participle from would be "biyaahaa/biyaahii" (married) from the verb "biyaahnaa". However, if we turn to Sanskrit and start off from "vivaah", we'll obtain "vivaahit". It is this "-it" suffix (and a very useful suffix indeed) that I had in mind, used in Hindi to form "past participle" type of words. I hope this makes sense.

    The ability of English language to form "-ing" and "ed" words at leisure gives it a wonderful tool. Hindi has "-it" and if something for "-ing" could also be thought up/invented, it would be great for the language. I only wish there was something similar in Urdu.
     
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    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    I think "vivaahit" is an adjective and not a past participle (I do know that many past participles also function as adjectives, but there is no verb "vivaahnaa", so there is no question of a past participle).

    In addition, Hindi does have "-it", but it cannot be added willy-nilly, as the English "-ed". As for "-ing", I do think there is already "-taa, -tii" in Hindi: dauRtaa paani, bhagtaa maanas, barastii baarish. If you mean the form of "man is running", then since the construction is with the auxiliary "rehnaa", the question does not arise.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I think "vivaahit" is an adjective and not a past participle (I do know that many past participles also function as adjectives, but there is no verb "vivaahnaa", so there is no question of a past participle).

    In addition, Hindi does have "-it", but it cannot be added willy-nilly, as the English "-ed". As for "-ing", I do think there is already "-taa, -tii" in Hindi: dauRtaa paani, bhagtaa maanas, barastii baarish. If you mean the form of "man is running", then since the construction is with the auxiliary "rehnaa", the question does not arise.

    I had placed "past participle" in inverted commas knowing that the "-it" suffix is not added to verbs only. As for "taa/tii", the English "-ing" is much more versatile whereas "bahtaa paanii" (flowing water) is only one aspect of the English "-ing".

    Flying saucer
    Reading ability
    Tolstoy's writings
    Story writing etc
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    But I don't think that the past participle argument holds anyway, then, regardless of the scare quotes. "Missed" and "red" cannot be talked of in the same breath just because both end in "-ed".

    Yes, the English "-ing" is much more versatile, but every language has a different structure, and in fact because of this so-called versatility many English speakers don't know what is what. In summary, I don't see the point of comparing Hindi with English here.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    In the article I commented about in the thread ''Goliibaarii'' there is a nice word ghaTnaa-sthal which in Urdu would be jaa-yi-waquu3ah. Which of these two feels smoothier and easy to pronounce or nice-sounding?
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    In the article I commented about in the thread ''Goliibaarii'' there is a nice word ghaTnaa-sthal which in Urdu would be jaa-yi-waquu3ah. Which of these two feels smoothier and easy to pronounce or nice-sounding?

    To a Hindi speaker, of course the former.
     

    hindiurdu

    Senior Member
    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    In the article I commented about in the thread ''Goliibaarii'' there is a nice word ghaTnaa-sthal which in Urdu would be jaa-yi-waquu3ah. Which of these two feels smoothier and easy to pronounce or nice-sounding?

    Marrish sahab, in mouthing those to myself, neither :) I'd go with "haadse ki jagah". Though I should clarify that this is the most "natural feeling" for me. Otherwise, retroflexes / aspirants / fricatives will always feel less smooth in general, so jaa-yi-waquu3ah will feel smoother to say to most people (the q is the only stall in it). I suspect greatbear meant "natural" also, though I shouldn't put words in his mouth. ghaTnaa-sthal feels more dramatic/explosive to me than haadse ki jagah.
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    marrish said:
    In the article I commented about in the thread ''Goliibaarii'' there is a nice word ghaTnaa-sthal which in Urdu would be jaa-yi-waquu3ah. Which of these two feels smoothier and easy to pronounce or nice-sounding?
    To an Urdu speaker, more likely the latter (as it is used in khabarnamahs at least once a day now-which probably isn't such a good thing)
     

    hindiurdu

    Senior Member
    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    But this (Haadise kii jagah) could also imply, "site of the accident" instead of " site of the incident"!

    Yes, that is correct. It's less specific, but I think that is what I would naturally say in this case, if I were speaking without thought or constraint.
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    I suspect greatbear meant "natural" also, though I shouldn't put words in his mouth. ghaTnaa-sthal feels more dramatic/explosive to me than haadse ki jagah.

    I did mean "natural" as well, HU, and I do agree that "ghaTnaa sthal" sounds very dramatic: no wonder Hindi media keeps using the word.
     
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