Punjabi: Etymology for Kande

asjar

New Member
Urdu, Punjabi
It can mean both "thorns" or "riverbank" depending on the usage, so I'm curious as to what its etymological root is.

<Gulab de kande>
<Nadi de kande>
 
  • marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Before looking into the etymology I think these words are two independent ones, gulaab de kanDe کنڈے and naddii de kánD_he کنڈھے
     

    asjar

    New Member
    Urdu, Punjabi
    Before looking into the etymology I think these words are two independent ones, gulaab de kanDe کنڈے and naddii de kánD_he کنڈھے

    Thanks for clearing that for me marrish. My apologies. I am not a native Punjabi speaker.

    I would be interested in the etymology for کنڈھے. I believe کنڈے comes from the Indo-Aryan word kaṇṭaka.
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Turner:

    2680 kaṇṭhá m. (a) ʻ throat, neck ʼ ŚBr. (b) ʻ narrowest part of a hole ʼ Suśr. (c) ʻ voice ʼ MBh., ʻ sound ʼ W. (d) ʻ *border, immediate proximity ʼ Pañcat.
    [Mayrhofer EWA i 146 accepts connexion with Drav. (T. Burrow BSOAS xi 133) but considers both IA. and Drav. forms to have originated in Muṇḍa (Kuiper PMWS 29). This is supported by the many forms with a varying degree of phonet. similarity not referable to a common IA. original: see *gāṭṭa -- 1, gāˊtra -- , *gicca -- , *ghaṭṭā -- , *ghaṇṭa -- , ghāṭā -- 1, *ghicca -- 1, *ghiñca -- , *ghēñca -- , *ghēṇṭu -- , *śraṭṭa -- , kŕ̊kāṭikā -- , kandhara -- ]
    (a) Pa. kaṇṭha -- m. ʻ throat, neck ʼ; Pk. kaṁṭha -- m. ʻ neck ʼ; Gy. pal. kand ʻ throat ʼ, Gaw. Sv. khaṇṭi; L. awāṇ. kadhlī ʻ neck -- strap ʼ; WPah. bhal. kaṇṭh m. ʻ collar of a shirt ʼ, kaṇṭhi f. ʻ sheep with a black neck ʼ; Ku. gng. kāni ʻ neck ʼ or < skandhá -- ; Or. kaṇṭhā ʻ throat ʼ, H. poet. kã̄ṭhā m.; M. kã̄ṭhẽ n. ʻ neck ʼ; Si. kaṭa ʻ throat, mouth ʼ (X skandhá -- in SigGr. kaṇḍa ʻ neck ʼ).
    (b) Wg. káṇṭä ʻ water -- channel ʼ, Woṭ. kaṇṭḗl f., Gaw. khāṇṭ*l, Bshk. kāṇḍə.
    (c) Kt. kaṭīˊ ʻ sound ʼ, Pr. (LSI) kuṭ; Paš. lauṛ. kāṇḍā ʻ voice, word ʼ, kuṛ. kāṇ ʻ shouting ʼ; Gaw. khaṇṭ f. ʻ word ʼ.
    (d) Pk. kaṁṭha -- m. ʻ border, edge ʼ; L. awāṇ. kaḍḍhā ʻ bank ʼ; P. kaṇḍhā m. ʻ bank, shore ʼ, ˚ḍhī f. ʻ land bordering on a mountain ʼ; WPah. cam. kaṇḍhā ʻ edge, border ʼ; N. kānlo, kã̄llo ʻ boundary line of stones dividing two fields ʼ, kã̄ṭh ʻ outskirts of a town ʼ ← a Mth. or H. dial.; H. kã̄ṭhā ʻ near ʼ; OMarw. kāṭha m. (= kã̄˚?) ʻ bank of a river ʼ; G. kã̄ṭhɔ m. ʻ bank, coast, limit, margin of a well ʼ; M. kāṭh, kã̄ṭh, ˚ṭhā m. ʻ coast, edge, border ʼ, kã̄ṭhẽ n. ʻ arable land near the edge of a hill. ʼ -- L. P. kaṇḍh f. ʻ wall ʼ perh. infl. in meaning by kanthā -- 1.
    kaṇṭhaka -- ; utkaṇṭhati, utkaṇṭhā -- , utkaṇṭhita -- ; kaṇṭhamaṇi -- .
    Addenda: kaṇṭá -- : (a) S.kcch. kano m. ʻ neck (of a pot) ʼ.
    (d) S.kcch. kaṇṭho m. ʻ bank, coast ʼ; Garh. kã̄ṭhu ʻ throat (?), bank (?) ʼ.
    †kaṇṭhāla -- .
     

    asjar

    New Member
    Urdu, Punjabi
    Turner:

    2680 kaṇṭhá m. (a) ʻ throat, neck ʼ ŚBr. (b) ʻ narrowest part of a hole ʼ Suśr. (c) ʻ voice ʼ MBh., ʻ sound ʼ W. (d) ʻ *border, immediate proximity ʼ Pañcat.
    [Mayrhofer EWA i 146 accepts connexion with Drav. (T. Burrow BSOAS xi 133) but considers both IA. and Drav. forms to have originated in Muṇḍa (Kuiper PMWS 29). This is supported by the many forms with a varying degree of phonet. similarity not referable to a common IA. original: see *gāṭṭa -- 1, gāˊtra -- , *gicca -- , *ghaṭṭā -- , *ghaṇṭa -- , ghāṭā -- 1, *ghicca -- 1, *ghiñca -- , *ghēñca -- , *ghēṇṭu -- , *śraṭṭa -- , kŕ̊kāṭikā -- , kandhara -- ]
    (a) Pa. kaṇṭha -- m. ʻ throat, neck ʼ; Pk. kaṁṭha -- m. ʻ neck ʼ; Gy. pal. kand ʻ throat ʼ, Gaw. Sv. khaṇṭi; L. awāṇ. kadhlī ʻ neck -- strap ʼ; WPah. bhal. kaṇṭh m. ʻ collar of a shirt ʼ, kaṇṭhi f. ʻ sheep with a black neck ʼ; Ku. gng. kāni ʻ neck ʼ or < skandhá -- ; Or. kaṇṭhā ʻ throat ʼ, H. poet. kã̄ṭhā m.; M. kã̄ṭhẽ n. ʻ neck ʼ; Si. kaṭa ʻ throat, mouth ʼ (X skandhá -- in SigGr. kaṇḍa ʻ neck ʼ).
    (b) Wg. káṇṭä ʻ water -- channel ʼ, Woṭ. kaṇṭḗl f., Gaw. khāṇṭ*l, Bshk. kāṇḍə.
    (c) Kt. kaṭīˊ ʻ sound ʼ, Pr. (LSI) kuṭ; Paš. lauṛ. kāṇḍā ʻ voice, word ʼ, kuṛ. kāṇ ʻ shouting ʼ; Gaw. khaṇṭ f. ʻ word ʼ.
    (d) Pk. kaṁṭha -- m. ʻ border, edge ʼ; L. awāṇ. kaḍḍhā ʻ bank ʼ; P. kaṇḍhā m. ʻ bank, shore ʼ, ˚ḍhī f. ʻ land bordering on a mountain ʼ; WPah. cam. kaṇḍhā ʻ edge, border ʼ; N. kānlo, kã̄llo ʻ boundary line of stones dividing two fields ʼ, kã̄ṭh ʻ outskirts of a town ʼ ← a Mth. or H. dial.; H. kã̄ṭhā ʻ near ʼ; OMarw. kāṭha m. (= kã̄˚?) ʻ bank of a river ʼ; G. kã̄ṭhɔ m. ʻ bank, coast, limit, margin of a well ʼ; M. kāṭh, kã̄ṭh, ˚ṭhā m. ʻ coast, edge, border ʼ, kã̄ṭhẽ n. ʻ arable land near the edge of a hill. ʼ -- L. P. kaṇḍh f. ʻ wall ʼ perh. infl. in meaning by kanthā -- 1.
    kaṇṭhaka -- ; utkaṇṭhati, utkaṇṭhā -- , utkaṇṭhita -- ; kaṇṭhamaṇi -- .
    Addenda: kaṇṭá -- : (a) S.kcch. kano m. ʻ neck (of a pot) ʼ.
    (d) S.kcch. kaṇṭho m. ʻ bank, coast ʼ; Garh. kã̄ṭhu ʻ throat (?), bank (?) ʼ.
    †kaṇṭhāla -- .

    So the neck of the river?

    Could you also please tell me where to access this dictionary so I don't bombard this forum with etymology questions?
     

    desi4life

    Senior Member
    English
    My apologies. I am not a native Punjabi speaker.

    But why have you listed Punjabi as a native language? :confused:

    So the neck of the river?

    Could you also please tell me where to access this dictionary so I don't bombard this forum with etymology questions?

    Punjabi kaṇḍhā m. ʻ bank, shore ʼ is connected with definition (d) ʻ *border, immediate proximity ʼ, which is attested in Prakrit as kaṁṭha -- m. ʻ border, edge ʼ. You can find the dictionary here: A Comparative Dictionary of Indo-Aryan Languages
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    One thing that has not been mentioned as yet is that the word for "thorns" has no tone whereas the one for "riverbanks " or "along the riverbank" has.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Yes, it is significant! It was not mentioned explicitly but in my post #2 there is "á" with an accent to represent the tone in the transcription: "naddii de kánD_he کنڈھے". Perhaps it was not clear because this "á" or "à" device might not be the usual one.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Thanks for clearing that for me marrish. My apologies. I am not a native Punjabi speaker.

    I would be interested in the etymology for کنڈھے. I believe کنڈے comes from the Indo-Aryan word kaṇṭaka.
    No need for apologies, neither am I. Yes, "thorn" کنڈا kanDaa comes from kaṇṭa < Pr. kaṇṭaka with the same meaning whereas کنڈھا káNRD_haa from kaṇṭhá < Pr. kaṁṭha as already known.
     
    Last edited:

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, it is significant! It was not mentioned explicitly but in my post #2 there is "á" with an accent to represent the tone in the transcription: "naddii de kánD_he کنڈھے". Perhaps it was not clear because this "á" or "à" device might not be the usual one.
    Apologies Marrish SaaHib. I missed the notation for the tone.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Many others must have missed it too, Turner's dictionary doesn't know of tones for Punjabi.
     

    asjar

    New Member
    Urdu, Punjabi
    No need for apologies, neither am I. Yes, "thorn" کنڈا kanDaa comes from kaṇṭa < Pr. kaṇṭaka with the same meaning whereas کنڈھا káNRD_haa from kaṇṭhá < Pr. kaṁṭha as already known.
    Thanks for the clarification marrish.
     
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