Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu: Jalandhar

marrish

Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
I just saw a recent thread by Alfaaz SaaHib in which he mentioned a modern Urdu poet, late Zia Jalandhari.

In Urdu, his name is written جالندھری jaalaNdharii.

In Punjabi, the city is either called جالندھر jaalandár or ਜਲੰਧਰ jalandár. In Hindi, I found the spelling जलंधर jalaNdhar but also जालंधर jaalaNdhar (e.g. on Wikipedia Hindi - only in the title with [a] and with [aa] in the text.

Another famous poet from the same city, Hafeez Jalandhari - who wrote the Pakistan national anthem - is mentioned in Urdu as jaalaNdharii but in Punjabi on Wikipedia someone choose to write his name as حفیظ جلندری Hafiiz Jalandarii which is no different to Eastern Punjabi Wiki Hafiiz Jalandárii.


Why is this so complicated?
 
  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Is it "jalandar" or "Jalandhar" in Punjabi? I seem to hear the former. Perhaps in careful speech it is the latter. If the following is to be believed, the place name has its connections with the Puranas and Mahabharata. It is possible that Punjabi speakers have taken a shortcut and changed it to Jalandhar.

    Question. In Sanskrit, is the word for "inside" andhar? (I believe biyaas has been mis-spelt below).

    जालंधर ज़िले का नाम राक्षस के नाम पर रखा गया है, जिसका उल्लेख पुराण और महाभारत में भी हुआ है। जबकि कुछ का मानना है कि यह जगह राम के पुत्र लव की राजधानी थी। वही कुछ मानते हैं कि जालंधर का अर्थ पानी के अंदर होता है तथा यहाँ पर सतलुज और बीस नदियों का संगम होता है इसलिए इस जगह का नाम जालंधर रखा गया।
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    You are no doubt better placed to answer your own question about Punjabi.... but perhaps panjabigator SaaHib can say more about it. On the official site of the district, http://jalandhar.nic.in/, ਜਲੰਧਰ is mentioned and its pronunciation ought to be jalandár as I mentioned above - but it has to be confirmed. I'd be very surprised if it were to be pronounced "Jalandhar" in Punjabi, because of the position of "dha" and the tone as the result.

    In Sanskrit for inside it is "antar-". jalandhara- means basically "a cloud" - jal nuuN dharNR (t_àrNR) vaalii (in Skt. vaalaa (m.)
     

    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    Monier Williams doesn't give "cloud" as one of the definitions for jalaMdhara, but I can see why it would make sense.

    jalaMdhara: m. (g. 1. %{naDA7di}) `" water-bearer "'N. of a man Pravar. ; of an Asura (produced by the contact of a flash from S3iva's eye with the ocean , and adopted by the god of the waters ; called from having caught the water which flowed from Brahma1's eye) PadmaP. v , 141 ff. Lin3gaP. i , 97 ; N. of a particular Mudra1 ; %{-pura} n. N. of a town Katha7rn2. xvi
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    In my paper copy of Monier Williams' lexicon there is:

    jalaMdhara: m. ‘holding water’, a (rain-)coud, MBh.; R. &c’the ocean, L.’Cyperus rotundus, L.; Dalbergia ujjeinensis, L.; a metre of 4x32 syllabic instants’….

    I couldn't find jalaMdharapura :confused:
     

    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    According to the scanned version of the book, the definition you are citing is for jaladhara.

    You can find both jaladhara and jalaMdhara here (left column).
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Thanks, now I see! So it is possible that the name "jalaMdharapura" is the same as Jalandhar?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^It is called Jalandhar in India too, but the problem is if it is jaalandhar or jalandhar.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I think it is Jalandhar. The word "jalandharii" after an Urdu poet's name points too much towards his being a Punjabi. Perhaps, "jaalandarii" gives him a bit more "respectabnility". A case of "inferiority complex" perhaps?
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    In Punjabi, the city is either called جالندھر jaalandár or ਜਲੰਧਰ jalandár. In Hindi, I found the spelling जलंधर jalaNdhar but also जालंधर jaalaNdhar (e.g. on Wikipedia Hindi - only in the title with [a] and with [aa] in the text.

    Is it "jalandar" or "Jalandhar" in Punjabi? I seem to hear the former. Perhaps in careful speech it is the latter. If the following is to be believed, the place name has its connections with the Puranas and Mahabharata. It is possible that Punjabi speakers have taken a shortcut and changed it to Jalandhar.

    ^It is called Jalandhar in India too, but the problem is if it is jaalandhar or jalandhar.

    Hmm, this is the first I hear of "jaalandhar." I find it curious that we'd find an ā in Jalandhar's pronunciation, but I wonder if this might be an attempt to correct the name for Hindi? I can't think of any good examples, but I am aware that Punjabi speakers often say what sounds like "panjabbī" versus "panjābi." I always hear the latter and attribute that a more Hindi pronunciation. [We can observe an opposite trend with the lengthening of the "a" in "apnā" (Hindi) to "āpṇā" (Punjabi)]. Anyway, I will keep on the lookout for this. I can say that I never heard a Hindi speaker say "jaalandhar" before, but perhaps I wasn't talking with the right people.

    Sorry I cannot be of more help!

    Cheers!
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Hmm, this is the first I hear of "jaalandhar." I find it curious that we'd find an ā in Jalandhar's pronunciation, but I wonder if this might be an attempt to correct the name for Hindi? I can't think of any good examples, but I am aware that Punjabi speakers often say what sounds like "panjabbī" versus "panjābi." I always hear the latter and attribute that a more Hindi pronunciation. [We can observe an opposite trend with the lengthening of the "a" in "apnā" (Hindi) to "āpṇā" (Punjabi)]. Anyway, I will keep on the lookout for this. I can say that I never heard a Hindi speaker say "jaalandhar" before, but perhaps I wasn't talking with the right people.

    Sorry I cannot be of more help!Cheers!
    Interesting. This is something that is new to me.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    [...]Anyway, I will keep on the lookout for this. I can say that I never heard a Hindi speaker say "jaalandhar" before, but perhaps I wasn't talking with the right people. [...]
    Thank you for resurfacing! Please keep on being attentive to it - I would really like to have this issue solved! Could you please share your perceptions about the pronunciation of this name in Punjabi?
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    In Hindi, most of us pronounce it as "jaalandhar". I always assumed that "jalandhar" is the Punjabi pronunciation.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Platts does not have "jaalandhar" entry.

    H جلندهر जलन्धर jalandhar = H جلندر जलन्दर jalandar [S. जलं+धरः], s.m. Dropsy, ascites;—flat alluvial land; name of a district in the Punjab (the soil of which is alluvial.)
    H جلندهري जलन्धरी jalandharī [jalandhar, q.v.+S. ई(इन्)+कः], adj. & s.m. Dropsical;—a dropsical person.

    So, I wonder where "jaalandhar" has come from.
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    ^ No words come from Platts. First words come, then Platts records. I guess he didn't record the other pron., or the pron. has evolved since then.

    In short, from wherever it came and even though from etymology "jal" is the proper pron., the fact remains that the highly common pron. in Hindi is "jaalandhar". What I don't understand is that why is this being so extensively discussed. "aa" shortening to schwa, and vice versa, is common in Indic languages.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Platts, as you can read on the forum and in the preface to his dictionary had been researching the literature and newspapers of his time and subsequently relied on the assistance of contemporary experts of the language, so you are right to say "first words come, then Platts records". Please refer to my post #11, that source was published in the same year Platts' dictionary was. Therefore I am quite certain that your first suggestion is true or that he choose what seemed correct to him (and his aides).

    I am very grateful for your input as far as Hindi is concerned. This indicates that there is no (major) divergence between Hindi and Urdu. If you didn't understand why it was being discussed in length, perhaps now you can understand :). Suppose it was not interesting there wouldn't have been so many contributions (I can't help it, these are from other friends including you :)). There are many threads that remain ignored. Leaving aside the shortening or lengthening of "a" - I am wondering about the role of Punjabi in this issue - that is why this topic is being discussed. To tell the truth, when I didn't know Hindi or Punjabi, I was only used to "jaalandharii" in Urdu while upon having learnt them, I was tempted to think that the Urdu spelling was wrong. Well, at least I have benefited from this discussion, thanks to you and W9 again!
     
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    nikmahesh

    Member
    English, Hindi, Marwari (basic)
    New here! I think panjabigator may be on the right track here- I don't know about "jaalandhar" since I've never heard it pronounced that way, but in the case of the "dhar" in jalandhar I think it could very likely just be a popularized hindi pronunciation. e.g. like Bhangra.. :)
     

    Chhaatr

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    I have known jalandhar as jaalaNdhar in Hindi.

    However, it seems both jaalaNdhar and jalaNdhar are in use even by Indian Railways. For them, it is jalaNdhar chhaawnii station and jaalaNdhar siTii station. Check out photos below.

    jalandhar_cantt.jpg


    jalandhar_city.jpg
     

    Chhaatr

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    ^ littlepond jii, aaj kal bindii hii chalan meN hai. agar aap in photos pe dhyaan deN to paaeNge ki bindii kaa hii prayog huaa hai. aap aur maiN ab shaayad old fashioned kehlaae jaaeNge kyoNki hamne bachpan meN aadhaa na hii siikhaa thaa in shabdoN meN. By the way, capital or lowercase N is pretty tiresome. By my logic I should have also used capital N for bindii too. :)
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    ^ Ha ha, mujhe maluum nahin thaa ki main itnaa budhaa ho chalaa huun ;) Mere hisaab se bhii vaise yeh cap/lc kaa jhamelaa kaafii jhamele vaalaa hai :eek: isliye main to adhiktar hameshaa sirf lowercase 'n' kaa hi prayog kartaa huun. Saarii magajmaarii kii chhuTTii!
     
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