Ramon Llull / lul·lisme

סייבר־שד

Member
Spanish - Mexico
As far as I know, Llull's family name is supposed to be pronounced "ʎuʎ", which makes perfect sense to me, given that's the correct pronunciation of Catalan "ll", but then why is the philosophical system that bears his name written with initial "l" and then an "l·l", as well as other derivatives such as "lul·lià / lul·liana" and "lul·lista"?

Cheers!
 
  • Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    The natural evolution of initial L- in Catalan shows palatalisation. But learned words may preserve that initial L without palatalising it. You can see it when comparing llum and lumínic, lluna and lunar, llavi and labial, llentia and lenticular, etc.

    In the case of the adjective for Llull, it comes from scholastic Latin lullianus /lul:i'anus/, as his name in Latin was Lullius. So it also makes sense that the adjective is the Catalanisation of that scholastic word: lul·lià /lul:i'a/.
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    In fact, many important medieval figures had that double version of the local and the Latin form of their names. Which explains why there are versions of them in all European languages, as they were translations from the Latin form.

    In the case of Ramon Llull, Raymond Lully in English, Raimundo Lulio in Spanish, etc. We can see how, while the Catalan one is the natural one, the English and Spanish versions are clear adaptations from the Latin Raimundus Lullius.
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    I'm pretty sure it should be four syllables in careful educated pronunciation, as i+a formed no diphthong. However, we're talking about medieval Latin here, so I guess both could be possible. (In fact, in modern Catalan, this is what happens. Lul·lià in formal standard Catalan has three syllables, but in informal spoken speech everybody says two.)

    The question could have more accurate replies in the Latin forum, though.
     
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