reduced relative phrase

Discussion in 'English Only' started by dudass, Oct 30, 2014.

  1. dudass Senior Member

    spanish
    Reduced relative phrases:

    We can reduce the following sentences by omitting the relative pronouns:


    The man who is chasing the tiger is a bit crazy.
    - The man chasing the tiger is a bit crazy.

    The girl who works at Daisy's is my sister.
    - The girl working at Daisy's is my sister.

    The picture that was sold at the auction is a fake.
    - The picture sold at the auction is a fake.


    However we cannot omit the relative in this sentence:

    Picasso is the artist who painted "Guernica".

    Why?

    Thanks a lot.
     
  2. owlman5

    owlman5 Senior Member

    Colorado
    English-US
    If Picasso were still painting "Guernica" at the time you made the remark, you could say "Picasso is the artist painting 'Guernica'."

    Because Picasso is dead and he painted "Guernica" a long time ago, you need to use "who painted Guernica." You can't use a past participle like "painted" in this sort of reduction: Picasso is the artist painted "Guernica". :confused: This version is fine: Picasso is the artist who painted "Guernica." :thumbsup:
     
  3. Giorgio Spizzi Senior Member

    Italian
    Hullo, dudass.

    The "rule" by which you can pass from The man who is chasing the tiger is a bit crazy to The man chasing the tiger is a bit crazy can be applied to a string containing a form of "be" followed by a Present /Past Participle: e.g. "The man who is coming in ... The man who was killed ...".
    I noticed that you didn't mention this fact when you wrote "...
    omitting the relative pronouns". I think you should have written " ... omitting the the form of be and the relative pronouns".

    The Picasso sentence does not contain any form of be.

    GS :)

     
  4. dudass Senior Member

    spanish
    Hullo, Giorgio Spizzi.

    The next sentence does not contain any form of be and can be reduced: The girl who works at Daisy's is my sister. (The girl working at Daisy's is my sister).

    Hello, Owlman5.

    The next sentence can be reduced: The artist who painted "Las Meninas" died a long time ago. (The artist painting "Las Meninas" died a long time ago.


    So the questions does not seem to depend on the tense used in the relative close, nor on the fact that the antecedent of the relative pronoun is dead or alive. There must be something else to it.


    Thank you both indeed.
     
  5. Giorgio Spizzi Senior Member

    Italian
    Hullo.

    I don't think The girl who works at Daisy's is my sister and The girl working at Daisy's is my sister are synonymous.
    Nor do I believe in the synonymity of
    The artist who painted "Las Meninas" died a long time ago and The artist painting "Las Meninas" died a long time ago.

    A minute change in the lexicon will suffice to seize the difference:

    The girl who goes to Ghirardelli High is my sister ≠
    The girl going to Ghirardelli High is my sister.

    The cop who killed Jack the Ripper died of pneumonia cannot become
    The cop killing Jack the Ripper died of pneumonia.
    What you can do is transform a sentence containing a Relative pronoun, a form of Be and a Participle into one without any of the preceding.

    GS :)

    *
     
  6. Myridon

    Myridon Senior Member

    Texas
    English - US
    Your reduced sentence was originally "The girl who is working at Daisy's is my sister."
    "The girl who worked at Daisy's on Saturday is my sister." can't be reduced.
     
  7. owlman5

    owlman5 Senior Member

    Colorado
    English-US
    Hi, dudass.

    This is wrong. "The artist painting 'Las Meninas' died a long time ago" is not an accurate reduction of that sentence. "Painting" is not a reduction of "who painted."
     
  8. Biffo Senior Member

    England
    English - England
    dudass - As has been pointed out, there are several inconsistencies in your question. I will attempt to remove the problem.

    1.
    If you invert the sentence

    Picasso is the artist who painted Guernica.

    you can produce

    2.

    The artist who painted Guernica is Picasso.

    Now you have a sentence that is much closer to

    3.

    The girl who works at Daisy's is my sister.

    The only remaining difference is that that sentence is in present tense. To make it exactly parallel to the new Picasso sentence, you would have to change it to

    4. The girl who worked at Daisy's is my sister.



    My challenge to you is: Can you reduce that last 'Daisy' sentence? I don't think you can! That is the reason you can't reduce the Picasso sentence.
     

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