Romance languages: lexical differences between romance languages. It is not always as it seems!

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aum34

Member
Spanish & Catalan- Spain
I notice that Romance languages sometimes have big lexical differences at first sight. However, a closer look show us that despite the lexical differences, they not always mean a lack of understanding, specially for romance languages native speakers (who have a deep knowledge of their own language) .To illustrate this, I'm going to use some examples:

As Spanish speaker, I can understand that "to like" in Italian is Piacere despite the fact that in Spanish is "Gustar". In old Spanish, the verb " PLACER" was quite popular with the same meaning like in Italian. For the same reason, Italians can understand perfectly "gustar" because, if i'm not mistaken, Gustare was the old way to say "to like". A second language student would not have this kind of knowledge. This could explain also why Spanish and Italian have a higher degree of intellegibility but a lower lexical similarity than Italian and French. Word to word, they are different but it doesn't mean they are completly strange words, just the other way around. I just think that the lexical correlation among the languages is not the only factor that can explain the "closeness" among two languages.

A few more examples:

to come back

it. Tornare sp. Volver (lat. VOLVERE but old Spanish Tornar)

to go (lat. IRE)

it. Andare (old Italian Ire) sp. Ir (Andar in sp. is "to walk")

To speak

it. parlar sp. Hablar (from lat. FABULARI, but also exist "parlar" to talk a lot. Also in South America "Parlantes" are the "loudspeakers")

Brother/Sister

it. Fratello/ Sorella(but Germano/-a brother of blood) sp. hermano/-a (but also Fray, Sor, fraterno, fraternidad, fraternal,....)

And so on... (from lat. AD RIPAM)

arrivare (it.), arribar (sp.),

it. mangiare (to eat in it. from late Latin MANDUCARE), sp. Comer (from lat. COMEDERE but manjar in sp. is a delicious food)



What do you think?
 
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  • Riverplatense

    Senior Member
    German — Austria
    I think all romance languages more or less (Spanish or Italian more, Romanian and French a bit less) feed on the same lexical reservoir present in Vulgar Latin. But as change is natural to languages (in semantics often in the process of innovation—habituation—conventionalisation) the concrete meanings can change, mostly conserving, however, a certain relationship to the initial meaning, like the forms of ‹to take› in Italian and French prendere, prendre PREHENDERE, but Spanish with a smaller semantic prender, or regional Italian pigliare ← *PILIARE PILARE, somehow similar to Spanish pillar. So some etyma develop without huge semantic changes, while others get a broader or more restricted meaning. But as most of those words are still more or less present in other romance languages, this definitely eases inter-romance communication.
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    In Sardinian many times are used Latin verbs not present in other Romance languages, or used with different meaning, and often the meaning of the same verb changes from north to south of Sardinia.

    for example :

    the verb "Prendere" exists in Sardinian but it doesn't mean "to take", but "to immobilize, to capture, to tie"; like the English "Apprehend" that is a synonymous of "to arrest, to capture"

    • Instead the verb "to take" in Sardinian (central-northern) is "Levare or Leàre", from Latin "Levare" = to grasp, to lift, to raise, to remove; the verb Levare exists also in Italian but it means "to remove"; there is also a cognate : "sollevare" (Latin "sub levare") = to grasp from below, to lift from below
    • In central-southern Sardinian istead the verb used for "to take" is "pigare", similar to the English "to pick"; the same verb "pigare" is present also in northern Sardinian but the meaning is "to ascend"

    instead about pigliare ← *PILIARE PILARE, somehow similar to Spanish pillar

    in Sardinian is present the same verb as : "pijàre" (pronounce "pi-yàre"); but it's used as a synonymous of "to steal" (usually translated as "furare"), similar also to the English "to pillage"
     
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    aum34

    Member
    Spanish & Catalan- Spain
    In Spanish:

    Prender exist also in Spanish but it has different meanings:

    -Prender fuego: to set fire.
    -Prender: turn on. (specially in South America, in Spain "encender")

    TO TAKE

    -Pillar is a very common verb in slang (at least in Spain). Have a lot of meanings:
    -Pillar una enfermedad ( to get infected by illness)
    -Pillar a alguien haciendo algo (catching somebody by surprise doing something)
    -The game "Hyde-and-seek" is jugar al "Pilla-pilla"
    -¿Has pillado la loteria? (have you bought the lottery?) / He pillado unas cervezas (I've got a couple of beers)
    -With children: Pillín / pillina adj. refering to being naughty


    -Coger (from lat. COLLIGERE, to pick up) is the word used in formal language in Spain (but in Latin American Spanish "coger" means another thing..."to fuck" hehehe, they use "agarrar" instead)

    TO BRING:

    Have three verbs in Spanish:
    -Llevar (from lat. LEVARE) means to bring. A----->B A reference speaker brings something to B
    -Traer (from lat. TRAHERE, to bring to oneself) A<-----B B is bring something to A, the reference speaker
    -Old Spanish: Portar (from. lat. PORTARE)


    In Catalan:

    TO TAKE

    -Prendre (to take like in French and Italian)
    -Agafar (to pick up)

    TO BRING

    -Portar
    -Emportar-se (to bring with oneself)

    Llevar-se means "to wake up"
     
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    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    I think all romance languages more or less (Spanish or Italian more, Romanian and French a bit less) feed on the same lexical reservoir present in Vulgar Latin. But as change is natural to languages (in semantics often in the process of innovation—habituation—conventionalisation) the concrete meanings can change, mostly conserving, however, a certain relationship to the initial meaning, like the forms of ‹to take› in Italian and French prendere, prendre PREHENDERE, but Spanish with a smaller semantic prender, or regional Italian pigliare ← *PILIARE PILARE, somehow similar to Spanish pillar. So some etyma develop without huge semantic changes, while others get a broader or more restricted meaning. But as most of those words are still more or less present in other romance languages, this definitely eases inter-romance communication.
    I concur but also think isolation/peripheral position and other facts affected that process of innovation in a sort of regional waves in many cases, often with Sardinia, Romania and West Iberia on one side, and Italy, France and East Iberia on the other.

    We can see it in the example you mention, PREHENDERE:

    Meaning 'to capture, take hold of'
    Sardinian prendere, Romanian prinde, Spanish prender, Portuguese prender

    Meaning 'to take' in a much wider sense
    Italian prendere, French prendre, Catalan prendre, Aragonese prener
    Sardokan mentioned another interesting example, LEVARE:

    Meaning 'take' in a wider sense (get, bear/carry)
    Sardinian levare, Romanian lua, Spanish llevar, Portuguese levar

    Meaning more restricted to 'raise, lift' or 'take off, remove' (and get/stand up in reflexive form)
    Italian levare, levarsi, French lever, enlever, se lever, Catalan llevar, llevar-se
    (The meaning 'raise, lift' has got lost in modern Italian and modern Catalan)​
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    In Spanish:

    Prender exist also in Spanish but it has different meanings:

    -Prender fuego: to set fire.
    -Prender: turn on. (specially in South America, in Spain "encender")

    TO TAKE

    -Pillar is a very common verb in slang (at least in Spain). Have a lot of meanings:
    -Pillar una enfermedad ( to get infected by illness)
    -Pillar a alguien haciendo algo (catching somebody by surprise doing something)
    -The game "Hyde-and-seek" is jugar al "Pilla-pilla"
    -¿Has pillado la loteria? (have you bought the lottery?) / He pillado unas cervezas (I've got a couple of beers)
    -With children: Pillín / pillina adj. refering to being naughty


    -Coger (from lat. COLLIGERE, to pick up) is the word used in formal language in Spain (but in Latin American Spanish "coger" means another thing..."to fuck" hehehe, they use "agarrar" instead)

    TO BRING:

    Have three verbs in Spanish:
    -Llevar (from lat. LEVARE) means to bring. A----->B A reference speaker brings something to B
    -Traer (from lat. TRAHERE, to bring to oneself) A<-----B B is bring something to A, the reference speaker
    -Old Spanish: Portar (from. lat. PORTARE)


    In Catalan:

    TO TAKE

    -Prendre (to take like in French and Italian)
    -Agafar (to pick up)

    TO BRING

    -Portar
    -Emportar-se (to bring with oneself)

    Llevar-se means "to wake up"

    Examples of the same expressions in Sardinian

    to set fire = pònere fogu - Example : Sos pastores han postu fogu a su campu = the sheperds set fire to the field
    to catch fire = levare/leàre fogu - Example : Sos campos han leadu fogu ca fin totus siccos = the fields catched fire because they were all dry
    to turn on = atzèndere - Example : Atzènde sa lughe = turn on the light
    to turn off = istudare or occhire (to kill) - Example : Istùdande sa lughe / òcchinde sa lughe = turn off the light

    PIJARE (synonymous of to steal) Example : Sos ladros nos han pijadu sa macchina = the thieves stole our car
    FURARE (to steal) Example : Sos ladros nos han furadu sa macchina = the thieves stole our car

    TO BRING :

    Jùghere = to bring towards someone / to bring something with you
    Battìre = to bring toward you
    Trazàre = to drag

    examples :
    - Jùgheche cuss'ampulla a domo de tiu tou = Bring that bottle to your uncle's house
    - So essidu dae domo e happo juttu sos pitzinnos cun megus = I left home bringing the children with me
    - Faghe su piaghère, battimìnde cuss'ampulla = Please, bring me that bottle
    - Sa macchina no ponìat in motu e l'hamus dèpida trazàre = The car won't start and we were forced to drag it

    TO WAKE UP :

    - S'ind'ischidàre (to awake) Example : Custu manzanu m'inde so ischidadu chito = this morning I woke up early
    - S'inde pesare (to stand up) Example : Custu manzanu m'inde so pesadu chito = this morning I woke up early / M'inde so pesadu dae su lettu = I stood up from the bed

     

    aum34

    Member
    Spanish & Catalan- Spain
    Examples of the same expressions in Sardinian

    to set fire = pònere fogu - Example : Sos pastores han postu fogu a su campu = the sheperds set fire to the field
    to catch fire = levare/leàre fogu - Example : Sos campos han leadu fogu ca fin totus siccos = the fields catched fire because they were all dry
    to turn on = atzèndere - Example : Atzènde sa lughe = turn on the light
    to turn off = istudare or occhire (to kill) - Example : Istùdande sa lughe / òcchinde sa lughe = turn off the light

    PIJARE (synonymous of to steal) Example : Sos ladros nos han pijadu sa macchina = the thieves stole our car
    FURARE (to steal) Example : Sos ladros nos han furadu sa macchina = the thieves stole our car

    TO BRING :

    Jùghere = to bring towards someone / to bring something with you
    Battìre = to bring toward you
    Trazàre = to drag

    examples :
    - Jùgheche cuss'ampulla a domo de tiu tou = Bring that bottle to your uncle's house
    - So essidu dae domo e happo juttu sos pitzinnos cun megus = I left home bringing the children with me
    - Faghe su piaghère, battimìnde cuss'ampulla = Please, bring me that bottle
    - Sa macchina no ponìat in motu e l'hamus dèpida trazàre = The car won't start and we were forced to drag it

    TO WAKE UP :

    - S'ind'ischidàre (to awake) Example : Custu manzanu m'inde so ischidadu chito = this morning I woke up early
    - S'inde pesare (to stand up) Example : Custu manzanu m'inde so pesadu chito = this morning I woke up early / M'inde so pesadu dae su lettu = I stood up from the bed
    Very interesting. There is something strangely familiar with Sardinian. I find it quite "understandable". For example, "poner fuego" means literally "to put fire" which quite make sense.

    To catch fire in Spanish would be "prenderse", following your example: "Los campos se prendieron porque todos estaban secos" but in Old Spanish "porque" was "ca" as in Sardinian and Romanian.

    What is the ethimology of Jùghere ?

    Also see the expression "cun megus" from latin MECUM (with me), which if I'm not mistaken, is only preserved in Sardu and Spanish. In Spanish is the same: conmigo < con migo< cum mecum

    Tio (sp.) = tiu (sard.) = uncle

    Ampulla (sard.) = Ampolla (cat.) =bottle

    essidu (sard) = eixit (cat. valencian dialect) = exir,exida (old Spanish).
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    What is the ethimology of Jùghere ?
    It could be a twisted version of "Ducere" (to lead, to bring with you), with classical pronounce it would be "dùkere" : Ducere -> Dukere -> Jùghere or Jùchere (pronounced "Jùkere" on the mountains)

    or perhaps from the verb "Jungere" (to join, to reunite, to gather) + classical pronounce "Jùnghere" : Jungere -> Jùnghere -> Jùghere
     

    killerbee256

    Senior Member
    American English
    I speak Spanish and Portuguese and I spent a month in Italy a few years back(in Rosignano Marittimo, Tuscany and Rome.) After a week and half I could understand & communicate with the locals. Many words are under stood in both languages even if they have slightly different meanings, for example chiedere/querer. However gustar/gostar is not understandable to an italian, in italian gustare retains the Latin meaning "to taste," in Spanish and Portuguese as you know it's primary meaning now is "to like." If said for example "Eu gosto leer de historia" with out thinking the person I was speaking with gave me a very confused look.
     
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    aum34

    Member
    Spanish & Catalan- Spain
    I speak Spanish and Portuguese and I spent a month in Italy a few years back(in Rosignano Marittimo, Tuscany and Rome.) After a week and half I could understand & communicate with the locals. Many words are under stood in both languages even if they have slightly different meanings, for example chiedere/querer. However gustar/gostar is not understandable to an italian, in italian gustare retains the Latin meaning "to taste," in Spanish and Portuguese as you know it's primary meaning now is "to like." If said for example "Eu gosto leer de historia" with out thinking the person I was speaking with gave me a very confused look.
    Gustare, if im not wrong, not only means "to taste". It means also to do something, eat or drink something that you like and enjoy, that you do with pleasure, so that gets closer to "gustar" in Spanish or Portuguese . On the other hand, the sentence you wrote is in Portuguese and Portuguese pronuntiation sounds completly different to the Italian or Spanish one . That could explain why they didn't understand. Or of course, that simply they didn't understand "gustar" :) It is just that it has never been my experience with Italians.
    This from Olivetti:

    gustàre
    gu|stà|re
    pronuncia: /gusˈtare/
    verbo transitivo

    1 distinguere, percepire il sapore per mezzo del gusto il raffreddore non lascia gustare i sapori

    2 assaggiare quanto basta di una bevanda o di un cibo per sentirne il sapore gusta un pezzo di questo torta | gustare la minestra | gustiamo questo vino | ne prendo solo un po', tanto per gustare | gustare a fior di labbra

    3 assaporare, mangiare o bere qualcosa con piacere, apprezzandone il sapore ho veramente gustato questa frutta | gustare un bicchierino di liquore | gustare una sigaretta | gustare un sigaro | mangio lentamente per meglio gustare questa ottima pietanza | se vuoi gustare veramente questo vino, bevilo fresco | gustare un gelato | gustare un bel pranzo | gustare un bel piatto; si rafforza con la forma pronominale finalmente posso gustarmi una sigaretta in santa pace! | questo vinello me lo voglio gustare stasera con gli amici

    4 figurato apprezzare traendo profonda soddisfazione o intimo godimento; godere di qualcosa con competenza gustare la dolcezza di una tiepida giornata | gustare il silenzio | gustare la quiete della campagna | gustare la musica | gustare la pittura | gustare la poesia | gustare il piacere della pace | gustare le parole | gustare il fresco | ho gustato quel libro fino all'ultima pagina | gustare un'opera d'arte | gustare un'esecuzione musicale | gustare la bellezza del paesaggio; si rafforza con la forma pronominale gustarsi uno spettacolo | gustarsi la scena | gustarsi un disco di musica leggera | gustarsi una bella vacanza | gustarsi un bel concerto




    verbo intransitivo

    (AVERE o ESSERE) familiare garbare, riuscire gradito, piacere, andare a genio ti gusterebbe una bella gita? | è un'idea che mi gusta poco | il tuo comportamento non mi gusta affatto

    That is exactly as in Spanish or Portuguese


    gustàrsi
    gu|stàr|si
    pronuncia: /gusˈtarsi/
    verbo pronominale transitivo

    1 con valore intensivo, assaporare con particolare piacere: finalmente posso gustarmi una sigaretta in santa pace! | questo vinello me lo voglio gustare stasera con gli amici | gustarsi un caffé | gustarsi un buon bicchiere | gustarsi una pizza | mi sono proprio gustato quella fetta di torta

    2 figurato godersi in modo particolare gustarsi uno spettacolo | gustarsi la scena | gustarsi un disco di musica leggera | gustarsi una bella vacanza | gustarsi un bel concerto | gustarsi un bel film | gustarsi un bel libro
     

    killerbee256

    Senior Member
    American English
    I wrote in Portuguese, but my actual pronunciation is a mix of Brazilian Portuguese and Spanish, and at that time italian. I had picked up a bit of Italian accent while I was there but it faded with time. I found that many times dispite the dictionary saying a word had a secondary meaning closer to Iberian romance, actual people would not always understand the word if used that way. It honestly depended on the education of the speaker, my Italian archeaolgy professor understood more of these words due to his in depth knowledge of latin.
     
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    jazyk

    Senior Member
    Brazílie, portugalština
    A Portuguese speaker would not have understood either. If you mean I like to read stories, it should be (Eu) gosto de ler histórias. If you mean I like to read about history, then it is (Eu) gosto de ler sobre história.
     

    guihenning

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    the verb "Prendere" exists in Sardinian but it doesn't mean "to take", but "to immobilize, to capture, to tie"; like the English "Apprehend" that is a synonymous of "to arrest, to capture"
    Roughly the same in Portuguese. I think it's very interesting that I can read Sardinian and understand a bit of it when it's related to Portuguese.
    Portuguese surprisingly also uses the same verbs for certain actions you mentioned:
    to set fire = pònere fogu - Example : Sos pastores han postu fogu a su campu = the sheperds set fire to the field
    to set fire = pôr/atear fogo — Example: Os pastores puseram fogo no campo —quite literal translation— [PONERE > poer > pôr]
    to turn on = atzèndere - Example : Atzènde sa lughe = turn on the light
    to turn on = acender — Example: acende a luz

    Also, some Sardinian spellings reflect our pronunciation: fogu (fogo), campu (campo), postu (posto)… Unstressed, post-tonic 'o' is always realized as 'u' in all* dialects of the Portuguese language.
    *debatable

    Yes, 'gostar' is mainly related to 'to like', but dictionaries still mention it as possible for 'to taste' and none of them mark it as obsolete (even though no one uses it like that). The structure for such is also different, if it means 'to taste', 'to eat', no preposition is used: «Eu gosto uvas passas» (?) (this looks and sounds very odd), but if it means 'to like', «de» is mandatory: «Eu gosto de uva passa»
    Still, our tongues have 'papilas gustativas', which is a latinism, but we all understand it's related to the verb 'gostar'. Also, when we say something 'tastes' like x, we say 'isso tem gosto de' [this has flavor of]. So even though the verb has changed its main, perhaps original, meaning, it still retains meanings or uses that trace it back to latin or at least to Italian/French for gustare/goûter. Oh, and there is also the verb «degustar».
    At last, we have the verb 'prazer' (obsolete) and 'aprazer' (rare) which are cognates to Italian/French piacere/plaire and mean the same thing, the structure is also identical.
    « ça me plaît » > «isto me apraz»
     

    heterônimo

    Member
    Br-Pt
    Another interesting word is Fr. entendre and It. intendere which can both mean 'to understand' and 'to hear', unlike Sp./Pt. entender which can only mean 'to understand'.
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    Another interesting word is Fr. entendre and It. intendere which can both mean 'to understand' and 'to hear', unlike Sp./Pt. entender which can only mean 'to understand'.
    In Sardinian the verb Intendere means only "to hear"; there is also the verb Aiscultare (to listen to); while the verb "to understand" is cumprendere
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    Old Spanish entender and Old Catalan entendre could also mean 'to hear'.
     

    Olaszinhok

    Senior Member
    Standard Italian
    I found that many times dispite the dictionary saying a word had a secondary meaning closer to Iberian romance, actual people would not always understand the word if used that way. It honestly depended on the education of the speaker, my Italian archeaolgy professor understood more of these words due to his in depth knowledge of latin
    I think an educated Italian can understand from 50% to 80% of spoken Spanish if they don't speak too fast, particularly interviews, tourist guides, recordings, ect. I can speak Spanish but a friend of mine, who had never learnt Spanish, once told me that he could understand about 70% of what a Spanish tourist guide was saying. The percentage can also change according to the Italian dialect spoken by the listener. Obviously dialogues can be harder to grasp.
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    Spanish can be quite easy to understand for Sardinian speakers due to the many similarities between both languages, Sardinian language sometimes shows evolutive solutions similar to Castillan or to Portuguese or to Catalan; however it's not a Western Romance language and neither Eastern Romance, it's someway in the middle.

    Example :

    El español, como las otras lenguas romances, es una continuación moderna del latín hablado (denominado latín vulgar), desde el siglo III, que tras el desmembramiento del Imperio romano fue divergiendo de las otras variantes del latín que se hablaban en las distintas provincias del antiguo Imperio, dando lugar mediante una lenta evolución a las distintas lenguas romances. Debido a su propagación por América, el español es, con diferencia, la lengua romance que ha logrado mayor difusión.


    S'ispagnolu, comente sas àteras limbas romanzas, est una continuazione moderna de su latinu faeddadu (denominadu latinu vulgare), dae su seculu IIIu, qui pùstis de s'ismembramentu de s'Imperu Romanu fit divergende dae sas àteras variantes de su latinu qui si faeddaìan in sas distintas provincias de s'antigu Imperu, dende logu mediante una lenta evoluzione a sas distintas limbas romanzas. Dèpidu a sa propagazione sua peri s'America, s'ispagnolu este, de seguru, sa limba romanza qui hat lòmpidu mazòre diffusione.
     

    guihenning

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    From auscultare we have 'escutar'. Also a medical latinism 'auscultar' (with a stethoscope).
    Entender can also mean 'to hear', but ouvir/escutar are much more used in such sense.
    If understanding is the matter, than both compreender/entender can be used, the latter more common in Brazil. The Portuguese sometimes prefer 'perceber'.

    What are the Sardinian verbs for 'to wait' and 'to hope'?
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    What are the Sardinian verbs for 'to wait' and 'to hope'?
    Aispettare / Ispettare = to wait

    aispètto, aispèttas, aispèttat, aispettàmus, aispettàdes, aispèttan

    Isperare = to hope

    Ispèro, ispèras, ispèrat, isperàmus, isperàdes, ispèran
     

    guihenning

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    I wonder why Portuguese and Spanish use 'esperar' for both 'wait' and 'hope', though Brazilian/Portuguese dictionaries say 'atender' can also mean 'to wait', if intransitive; but I've never seen such construction.
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    I wonder why Portuguese and Spanish use 'esperar' for both 'wait' and 'hope', though Brazilian/Portuguese dictionaries say 'atender' can also mean 'to wait', if intransitive; but I've never seen such construction.
    In Italian the verb "Attendere" means "to wait", along with "Aspettare"

    while in Sardinian the verb "Attendere" has preserved the original Latin meaning of (to tend, to take care of) : Ad Tendere -> Attendere

    Couldn't the Iberian "esperar" (to wait) be a corrupted version of "aspettare"? And the similarity with "esperar" (to hope) be only an evolutive coincidence?

    Esperar (to wait) : Latin - ex spectare -> espectare -> espetare -> espertare -> esperare
    Esperar (to hope) : Latin - ex sperare -> esperare
     

    heterônimo

    Member
    Br-Pt
    Entender can also mean 'to hear', but ouvir/escutar are much more used in such sense.
    There's a nuance here. Entender in Standard (Modern) Portuguese can only mean 'to listen' (escutar), not 'to hear' (ouvir). Like in the phrase: "Tem muito barulho aqui, não consigo te entender" i.e. to hear and understand.

    On the other hand, French entendre, for instance, can simply mean 'to hear' like in "J'ai entendu un bruit bizarre" (I heard a weird noise).

    I wonder why Portuguese and Spanish use 'esperar' for both 'wait' and 'hope', though Brazilian/Portuguese dictionaries say 'atender' can also mean 'to wait', if intransitive; but I've never seen such construction.
    Probably a Gallicism? Attendre is 'to wait' in French. Also, French espérer in Modern French is only used as 'to hope'.

    Couldn't the Iberian "esperar" (to wait) be a corrupted version of "aspettare"? And the similarity with "esperar" (to hope) be only an evolutive coincidence?
    Esperar comes from sperare (from spes). As for It. aspettare, Wikitionary mentions aspectare (from aspecto) as its etymology.
     

    Testing1234567

    Senior Member
    Cantonese
    The descendants of Latin spērāre unequivocally inherited the meaning of "to hope", and in the Iberian Romance languages, the descendant seems to also carry a meaning of "to wait". Also, Wiktionary lists "I await" as one of the definitions of Latin spērō.
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    Couldn't the Iberian "esperar" (to wait) be a corrupted version of "aspettare"? And the similarity with "esperar" (to hope) be only an evolutive coincidence?

    Esperar (to wait) : Latin - ex spectare -> espectare -> espetare -> espertare -> esperare
    Esperar (to hope) : Latin - ex sperare -> esperare
    I don't think so, as a hypothetical evolution of *espectare would have given solutions like these:

    Portuguese: espeitar
    Asturian: espeitar / espechar
    Spanish: espechar
    Aragonese: espeitar(e) / espitar(e)
    Catalan: espitar​

    Which maybe avoided some confusion with words coming from *despectare:

    Portuguese: despeitar (noun despeito)
    Spanish: despechar (noun despecho)
    Catalan: despitar (noun despit)​

    Expectar in the languages of Iberia is a cultism. Or, at best, semicultism.
     

    Nawaq

    Senior Member
    français (France)
    Another interesting word is Fr. entendre and It. intendere which can both mean 'to understand' and 'to hear', unlike Sp./Pt. entender which can only mean 'to understand'.
    I'm not sure if someone said it before but, as far as I know, entendre in French only means "to hear", in the sense of "to understand" it's noted as dated, and I personally never heard it used this way before. :)

    Just my two cents.
     

    heterônimo

    Member
    Br-Pt
    I'm not sure if someone said it before but, as far as I know, entendre in French only means "to hear", in the sense of "to understand" it's noted as dated, and I personally never heard it used this way before. :)

    Just my two cents.
    You're right if you're thinking of entendre as a synonym of comprendre, I was thinking more of a equivalent of 'to listen' (i.e. to understand with your ears). That said, it wasn't quite clear in my first manifestation and I need to rephrase myself:

    Portuguese entender can mean 'to listen' and 'to understand', whereas French entendre can mean 'to hear' and 'to listen'.

    It would be interesting to have a confirmation of the meaning(s) in the other Romance languages. :)
     

    Olaszinhok

    Senior Member
    Standard Italian
    As for the Italian Language:
    intendere: to comprehend, to understand, to grasp, but the verbs capire and comprendere are much more common with this meaning.
    The reflexive form intendersi means = to be an expert in; to know about; to be knowledgeable about sth.
    Last but not least, a couple of pronominal verbs:
    intendersela, intendersene = to know sth about, to make out with
    E Cerca di non intendertela con lei = And try to not make out with her, please
    Questa deve intendersene di musica = this chick must be, like, an expert in music.
     
    Last edited:

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    It would be interesting to have a confirmation of the meaning(s) in the other Romance languages.
    Like in French, in Sardinian the verb "Intendere" only means "to hear"

    to hear = intendere
    to listen to = aiscultare
    to understand = cumprendere

    differences with Italian :

    Intendere in Italian can mean "to hear, to understand, to grasp"
    Sentire in Italian means "to hear or to feel", while in Sardinian only "to feel"
    Capire = to understand; is not present in Sardinian, totally replaced by "cumprendere"

     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Catalan:

    to understand - entendre, comprendre
    to hear - sentir
    to listen - escoltar

    Spanish:

    to understand -
    entender, comprender
    to hear - oír
    to listen - escuchar
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    Capir for understand and oir for hear also exist in Catalan. But they are never used.

    Interesting how in Catalan and other languages in Iberia, as well as in Italy, sentir has the meaning of 'to hear', but in France, even in Occitan, it acquired the meaning of 'to smell'.

    Which leads me to another difference. In Portuguese, Spanish and French, the same verb is used for 'to smell' when it is transitive and intransitive:

    Portuguese: O cachorro me cheirou de cima a baixo.
    Spanish: El perro me olió de arriba a abajo.
    French: Le chien m'a senti de la tête aux pieds.


    Portuguese: Esta flor cheira muito bem.
    Spanish: Esta flor huele muy bien.
    French: Cette fleur sent très bon.

    In Catalan, olorar is only transitive, and we need the fer olor construction for the intransitive:

    El gos em va olorar de dalt a baix.
    Aquesta flor fa molt bona olor.
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    Which leads me to another difference. In Portuguese, Spanish and French, the same verb is used for 'to smell' when it is transitive and intransitive:
    In Italian in this case the verb is "odorare" or "annusare"; while Sardinian as usually is different from the other Romance languages; the verb for "to smell" is "fragare" or "fiagare", from Latin "flagrare" (to smell).


    Italian : Il cane mi ha odorato / annusato dalla testa ai piedi
    Sardinian : Su cane m'hat fiagadu dae pes finzas a cùccuru* (the dog has smelled me from feet to the top of the head)

    *
    the word "cùccuru" literally means "summit, top of the mountain" it's also used as synonymous of "top of the head"; similar to the Basque "kùkur" (summit); it's probably a residue of the pre-Roman language which was supposedly related to Basque.

    Italian : Questo fiore ha un buon profumo / odore
    Sardinian : Custu fiore hat unu bonu profumu / fiagu**

    **
    the word "fiagu" or "fragu" can mean both smell or scent, while the pejorative "fiaghera" or "fraghera" means "very bad smell"
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    In Italian in this case the verb is "odorare" or "annusare"; while Sardinian as usually is different from the other Romance languages; the verb for "to smell" is "fragare" or "fiagare", from Latin "flagrare" (to smell).
    Very interesting. I wasn't sure about Italian in this.

    There is an equivalent in Catalan to that "fragare/fiagare". It's flairar, and the noun is flaire. It is less common than olorar and olor, though, and are more often used for pleasant odours.
     

    heterônimo

    Member
    Br-Pt
    Not quite, "listen" is écouter (from lat. auscultāre), like pt. escutar.
    I'm not suggesting that écouter isn't the best translation for 'to listen'. It is. Still, entendre can mean 'to listen'. Let's look the definition on the dictionary:


    Larousse.fr: Entendre - 'Entendre volontairement quelqu'un, quelque chose' ; 'Ecouter ce que quelqu'un a à dire [...]'

    Wikitionnaire: Entendre - 'Ecouter d'une oreille attentive'

    Wikitionary: Listen - 'To pay attention to a sound or speech'

    Larousse.fr (Français-Anglais) - Entendre 1. to hear 2. to hear, to listen to [...]
     
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    aum34

    Member
    Spanish & Catalan- Spain
    Cheirar in Portuguese / Gallician comes from lat. FLAGRARE like in Sardinian. Typical evolution from lat. FL- , PL- > Ch-

    "...
    ' é preciso saber que o fl- inicial latino evoluiu para ch- em galego-português: foi o que aconteceu a flammam, que deu chama, e a flagrāre, origem de cheirar. Mas há ainda uma outra alteração fónica: -gr- latino passou a -ir- em galego-português, e é por isso que, assim como intĕgrum evoluiu para inteiro, o verbo flagrāre se tornou cheirar.'

    in Ciberdúvidas da Língua Portuguesa, A etimologia da palavra cheirar - Ciberdúvidas da Língua Portuguesa [consultado em 27-08-2020]



    In Spanish to smell is "Oler" from Latin " OLERE " which is also a synonim of Flagrare, meaning also in Latin "to smell".
     
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