Romance languages: Stress in Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Catalan, Romanian

jazyk

Senior Member
Brazílie, portugalština
I'd like to show you (and collect as well) a few examples of words with different stresses in the aforementioned languages. I didn't include French because it always stresses the last syllable.

Port terapia, Sp terapia, It terapia, Cat tepia, Ro terapie
Port enciclodia, Sp enciclopedia, It enciclopedia, Cat enciclodia, Ro enciclopedie
Port/It atrofia, Sp atrofia, Cat atròfia, Ro atrofie
Port/It euforia, Sp euforia, Cat euria, Ro euforie
Port/Cat orgia, Sp ora, It orgia, Ro orgie
Port/It ciclope, Sp clope, Cat/Ro ciclop
Port cliris*, Sp/Cat clítoris, It clitoride, Ro clitoris
Port pelicano, Sp pecano, It pellicano, Cat peli, Ro pelican
Port penitenciária, Sp penitenciaa, It penitenzieria, Cat penitencieria
Port pocia, Sp polia, It polizia, Cat policia, Ro poliţie
Port telefone, Sp tefono, It telefono, Cat tefon, Ro telefon
Port ope, Sp miope, It miope, Cat/Ro miop
Port medula, Sp dula, It medulla, Cat medul·la, Ro duvă
* Clítoris is sometimes heard.
 
  • robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    Just a question is "penitenciária" (etc.) "penance" in English??

    Because "peniténţă" is the Romanian word for it.

    :) robbie
     

    olivinha

    Senior Member
    Português, Brasil
    (Penitenciária = Penitentiary)

    Port democracia, Sp democracia
    Port Pântano, Sp Pantano
    Port nalti, Sp penalti
    Port peodo, Sp peodo o periodo


    O
     

    DrLindenbrock

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Port terapia, Sp terapia, It terapia, Cat tepia, Ro terapie
    Port enciclodia, Sp enciclopedia, It enciclopedia, Cat enciclodia, Ro enciclopedie
    Port/It atrofia, Sp atrofia, Cat atròfia, Ro atrofie
    Port/It euforia, Sp euforia, Cat euria, Ro euforie
    Port/Cat orgia, Sp ora, It orgia, Ro orgie
    Port/It ciclope, Sp clope, Cat/Ro ciclop
    Port cliris*, Sp/Cat clítoris, It clitoride, Ro clitoris
    Port pelicano, Sp pecano, It pellicano, Cat peli, Ro pelican
    Port penitenciária, Sp penitenciaa, It penitenzieria
    **, Cat penitencieria
    Port pocia, Sp polia, It polizia, Cat policia, Ro poliţie
    Port telefone, Sp tefono, It telefono, Cat tefon, Ro telefon
    Port ope, Sp miope, It miope, Cat/Ro miop
    Port medula, Sp dula, It medulla
    ***, Cat medul·la, Ro duvă
    * Clítoris is sometimes heard.
    Hi Jazyk, hi everybody!
    a few preliminary considerations:


    ** Penitenzieria is a word that I had never heard... it does exist in the dictionary but it's related with the Catholic church and its regulations.
    I'm sure you meant "prison", "jail", so in that case the word would be penitenziario, which by the way is masculine.
    *** medulla is a veeeery archaic word. My dictionary redirects me to me midolla (other accepted form, but also archaic: medolla), which means "the inner part of the bread", or even of fruits or cheese, and also, as a literary term, the essence of a problem. A rare meaning of midolla can be marrow, but the word people use is definitely midollo (masculin) (medollo is also found in dictionaries, but it's archaic).


    Ok, I know I've thrown too much stuff in here...sorrry! Here's how I would change the lists comprising these two words:
    Port penitenciária, Sp penitenciaa, It penitenziario, Cat penitencieria
    Port medula, Sp dula, It midollo, Cat medul·la, Ro duvă


    Here are some other ideas:
    Port Ronia or Ronia, Sp Romania or Romaa , It Romania, Cat Romania, Ro România
    Port democracia, Sp democracia, It democrazia, Cat democràcia, Ro democraţie
    Port agência, Sp agencia, It agenzia, Cat agència, Ro agenţie


    Also, there is another thing distinguishes Italian from Spanish and Catalan (I don’t know about Romanian and Portuguese).
    Many verbs of the first conjugation (infinitive ending with –are in Italian) have a different stress.
    Example with verb immaginare (it.), imaginar (sp., cat.)
    Io immagino, yo imagino, jo imagino
    Example with verb continuare (it.), continuar (sp., cat.)
    Io continuo, yo contio, jo continuo


    I'll see if I come up with other examples :)
     

    jazyk

    Senior Member
    Brazílie, portugalština
    Just a question is "penitenciária" (etc.) "penance" in English??
    No.

    ** Penitenzieria is a word that I had never heard... it does exist in the dictionary but it's related with the Catholic church and its regulations.
    I'm sure you meant "prison", "jail", so in that case the word would be penitenziario, which by the way is masculine.

    The other words also refer to the Catholic church as well. Some languages also have the prison sense you pointed to.

    *** medulla is a veeeery archaic word. My dictionary redirects me to me midolla (other accepted form, but also archaic: medolla), which means "the inner part of the bread", or even of fruits or cheese, and also, as a literary term, the essence of a problem. A rare meaning of midolla can be marrow, but the word people use is definitely midollo (masculin) (medollo is also found in dictionaries, but it's archaic).

    I'm not interested in how archaic a word is. I'm just interested in words.

    Here are some other ideas:
    Port Ronia or Ronia, Sp Romania or Romaa , It Romania, Cat Romania, Ro România
    Port democracia, Sp democracia, It democrazia, Cat democràcia, Ro democraţie
    Port agência, Sp agencia, It agenzia, Cat agència, Ro agenţie

    Thank you for your examples!

    Also, there is another thing distinguishes Italian from Spanish and Catalan (I don’t know about Romanian and Portuguese).

    Portuguese can't have verbs stressed on the antepenultimate syllable. I think I've never come across a Romanian verb with that feature either.


     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    You should have written English translations from the beginning Jazyk, to avoid people from misunderstanding you.

    The correct Romanian word for "penitentiary" (hope that's what you want) is penitenciar.

    An old word that corresponds with "correre" etc. is the Romanian verb "a cure".

    :) robbie
     

    olivinha

    Senior Member
    Português, Brasil
    (Penitenciária = Penitentiary)

    Port democracia, Sp democracia
    Port Pântano, Sp Pantano
    Port nalti, Sp penalti
    Port peodo, Sp peodo o periodo
    One more to my small Port Sp contribution:
    Port amoaco, Sp amoaco o amoniaco
    O
     

    albondiga

    Senior Member
    English/USA
    Port: telefone, Sp: teléfono
    Port: nível, Sp: nivel
    Port: limite, Sp: límite

    (OK, someone else finish these off as well :)...)

    EDIT: oops, just noticed that my first example was already in jazyk's list, but I'll leave it up anyway so that robbie's response below continues to make sense...
     

    albondiga

    Senior Member
    English/USA
    OK, two more points:

    1) The only apparent trend here is in the words ending in -ia (or -ie in Romanian); the other examples are all kind of random.... so I've got to make the usual request: does anyone know the background behind any of these differences? Can anyone make an educated guess about any of them?

    2) This got me thinking about another one:

    Port: coração, Sp: corazón, It: cuore

    Even though the Italian is quite a bit different, they're still cognates with the stress on different syllables... my totally wild guess is that maybe the Spanish and Portuguese versions started like cintura:arrow:cinturón (in Spanish), but then the version with -ón/ão stuck in Spanish and Portuguese but not in Italian, etc.?

    Does anyone know more about this example or any of the other examples of shifted stress?
     

    DrLindenbrock

    Senior Member
    Italian
    I'm not interested in how archaic a word is. I'm just interested in words.
    [/font][/color]
    That's all right, everyone has different interests. :)
    I wrote down the archaic words in order to show you a little of the etymological background and how the word evolved...I could have just told you:
    no, you say "midollo"!
    but that would not have added much to the discussion.
    Moreover, I wrote them in a footnote, note in the main list...
    So, like in many instances in life, if something does not interest one, he just ignores it! :)

    Word list:
    Port: limite, Sp: límite, It. limite
    Port. oceano, Sp. oano, It. oceano, Cat. oceà
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    2) This got me thinking about another one:

    Port: coração, Sp: corazón, It: cuore

    Even though the Italian is quite a bit different, they're still cognates with the stress on different syllables...
    The true cognate of Italian cuore in Portuguese is cor (an archaic word for "heart" which survives in the set phrase de cor "by heart", and in the verb decorar "to memorize").
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    In many Greek words ending in -ia Italian stresses the i while Spanish stresses the vowel before it. Apart from the already said terapia, atrofia, euforia, farmacia, and democracia:

    it: amnesia, es: amnesia
    it: anestesia, es: anestesia
    it: demagogia, es: demagogia (however, both it & es: pedagogia, pedagoa)
    it: monogamia, es: monogamia
    it: parodia, es: parodia
    it: pederastia, es: pederastia

    The only counter-example I've found is: it orgia es ora.

    Catalan calques Spanish, in this aspect.

    ---

    Some words ending in -il are oxytone in Spanish but paroxytone in Catalan:

    es: misil, ca: míssil
    es: textil, ca: tèxtil
    es: reptil, ca: rèptil

    Italian uses them as paroxytone as well as Portuguese except for réptil/reptil which seems to have variable stress.
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    Some examples of this phenomenon in Italian and Sardinian (the bold marks the accent), the Sardinian version usually keeps the accent like the original in Latin

    • Avere - Hàere (to have)
    • Tenere - Tènere or Tènnere (to keep)
    • Vedere - Bìdere (to see)
    • Sedere - Sèere or Sètzere (to sit)
    • Torrefare - Turrare (to roast)
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    the Sardinian version usually keeps the accent like the original in Latin
    I actually think it's Italian which has kept the original stress in the first four verbs, because they are from the 2nd conjugation.

    In Catalan:

    haver (dialectally heure and haure)
    tenir (dialectally tindre)
    veure (archaically veer; dialectally vore)
    seure (archaically seer)

    In Spanish there is no mystery because all infinitives are stressed in the last syllable (even from the Latin 3rd conj.), so:

    haber
    tener
    ver
    (archaically veer)
    ser (archaically seer)
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Catalan córrer, Spanish correr. I'm not sure about the Italian.
    It correre.
    In Catalan, French and Italian, the stress of the 3rd Latin conjugation infinitives has been kept in the antepenultima. This has triggered the loss of the medial -e- in Catalan (when phonotactically possible) and in French.

    On the other hand, Portuguese and Spanish have regularized all the stresses to the last syllable.

    Examples:

    La perdere, Pt perder, Es perder, Ca perdre, Fr perdre, It perdere
    La vendere, Pt vender, Es vender, Ca vendre, Fr vendre, It vendere
    La vincere, Pt vencer, Es vencer, Ca vèncer, Fr vaincre, It vincere
    La nascere, Pt nascer, Es nacer, Ca nàixer, Fr naître, It nascere

    #23 If Sardinian has shifted the stress of many (all?) 2nd conj. infinitives to the root syllable, I guess it is due to influence from the 3rd conjugation, so we could also include it in the Cat/Fr/It group, couldn't we, @Sardokan1.0 ?
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Sicilian (Italian)
    2nd conjugation: vìdiri (vedére), tèniri (tenére), càdiri (cadére),
    3rd conjugation: (j)àpriri (aprìre), bùgghiri (bollìre), cumpàriri (comparìre), divèttiri (divertìre), dòmmiri (dormìre), fùiri (fuggìre), ìnchiri ((ri)empìre), nèsciri (uscìre), pàttiri (partìre), sèbbiri (servìre), vèniri (venìre), vèstiri (vestìre)
     
    Last edited:

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    In Catalan, French and Italian, the stress of the 3rd Latin conjugation infinitives has been kept in the antepenultima. This has triggered the loss of the medial -e- in Catalan (when phonotactically possible) and in French.

    On the other hand, Portuguese and Spanish have regularized all the stresses to the last syllable.

    Examples:

    La perdere, Pt perder, Es perder, Ca perdre, Fr perdre, It perdere
    La vendere, Pt vender, Es vender, Ca vendre, Fr vendre, It vendere
    La vincere, Pt vencer, Es vencer, Ca vèncer, Fr vaincre, It vincere
    La nascere, Pt nascer, Es nacer, Ca nàixer, Fr naître, It nascere

    #23 If Sardinian has shifted the stress of many (all?) 2nd conj. infinitives to the root syllable, I guess it is due to influence from the 3rd conjugation, so we could also include it in the Cat/Fr/It group, couldn't we, @Sardokan1.0 ?

    The stress shift is not very common, only in certain verbs, while in the verbs mentioned above the stress in Sardinian is like in Italian, with some different pronounces

    La perdere, Pt perder, Es perder, Ca perdre, Fr perdre, It perdere, Sar perdere.
    La vendere, Pt vender, Es vender, Ca vendre, Fr vendre, It vendere, Sar bendere.
    La vincere, Pt vencer, Es vencer, Ca vèncer, Fr vaincre, It vincere, Sar binchere.
    La nascere, Pt nascer, Es nacer, Ca nàixer, Fr naître, It nascere, Sar naschere.


    There are however many verbs that in origin belonged to 3rd conjugation that in Sardinian switched to 2nd conjugation, Example :

    Latin - Sardinian

    Legere - Leggere or Legghere

    Lego - Leggio - Leggo
    Legis - Legges - Legghes
    Legit - Legget - Legghet
    Legimus - Leggimus - Legghimus
    Legitis - Leggides / Legghides
    Legunt - Leggen / Legghen

    Currere - Currere

    curro - curro

    curris - curres
    currit - curret
    currīmus - currimus
    currītis - currides
    currunt - curren
     
    Last edited:

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Sicilian (Italian)
    2nd conjugation: vìdiri (vedére), tèniri (tenére), càdiri (cadére),
    3rd conjugation: (j)àpriri (aprìre), bùgghiri (bollìre), cumpàriri (comparìre), divèttiri (divertìre), dòmmiri (dormìre), fùiri (fuggìre), ìnchiri ((ri)empìre), nèsciri (uscìre), pàttiri (partìre), sèbbiri (servìre), vèniri (venìre), vèstiri (vestìre)
    Is this change regular in 2nd and 3rd conjugation verbs?
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    Another verb with this stress switch :

    Italian - Sardinian

    Decadére - Decàere

    There is a peculiarity in this verb, because the cognate of "Cadére" is not present in Sardinian, the Italian "Cadére" in Sardinian is "Rùere"

    from Latin : [rŭo], rŭis, rui, rŭĕre = (to collapse, to crumble)

    Also this verb like a great number of verbs, in Sardinian switched from 3rd to 2nd conjugation


    Latin - Sardinian


    present
    1 rŭo - ruo
    2 rŭis - rues
    3 rŭit - ruet
    1 rŭĭmus - ruimus
    2 rŭĭtis - ruides
    3 rŭunt - ruen

    the imperfect tense in Sardinian sounds like a mix of Latin imperfect and perfect

    Latin - Sardinian

    imperfect
    1 ruḗbam
    2 ruḗbās
    3 ruḗbat
    1 ruēbā́mus
    2 ruēbā́tis
    3 ruḗbant

    perfect
    1 ruī
    2 rustī
    3 ruit
    1 ruimus
    2 rustis
    3 ruḗrunt

    imperfect
    1 ruia, ruio
    2 ruisti, ruias
    3 ruiat
    1 ruimis, ruimus, ruiamus
    2 ruitis, ruizis
    3 ruian
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Is this change regular in 2nd and 3rd conjugation verbs?
    As for the 3rd conjugation (4th Latin conjugation) it seems to me that inchoative verbs (-isc verbs) tend to have the same stress, finìri, capìri, while there is a tendence, for non-inchoative verbs, to have a stress on the antepenultimate syllable in the infinitive mood.
    As for the verbs of the 2nd conjugation (from the 2nd Latin conjugation) I don't know if there is a general tendence or if these are only few exceptions.
    If you want to know something more about it, you can list some verbs and I can add the Sicilian forms.
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    Sicilian (Italian)
    2nd conjugation: vìdiri (vedére), tèniri (tenére), càdiri (cadére),
    3rd conjugation: (j)àpriri (aprìre), bùgghiri (bollìre), cumpàriri (comparìre), divèttiri (divertìre), dòmmiri (dormìre), fùiri (fuggìre), ìnchiri ((ri)empìre), nèsciri (uscìre), pàttiri (partìre), sèbbiri (servìre), vèniri (venìre), vèstiri (vestìre)
    Some of this verbs have the same stress in Sardinian

    2nd conjugation:

    vìdiri (vedére) bìdere
    (bido, bìdes, bìdet, bidìmus, bidìdes, bìden)
    tèniri (tenére) tènere, tènnere
    (tenzo, tènes, tènet, tenìmus, tenìdes, tènen)
    3rd conjugation :

    vèniri (venìre) -> bènnere
    (benzo, bènis. bènit, benìmus, benìdes, bènin)
    cumpàriri (comparìre) - This verb in Sardinian has two different forms:

    cumparìre (3rd conjugation)
    cumparzo, cumpàris, cumpàrit, cumparìmus, cumparìdes, cumpàrin
    cumpàrrere
    (2nd conjugation) - same conjugation of the verb "Pàrrere" (Sembrare)
    cumparzo, cumpàres, cumpàret, cumparìmus, cumparìdes, cumpàren
     

    irinet

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    You should have written English translations from the beginning Jazyk, to avoid people from misunderstanding you.

    The correct Romanian word for "penitentiary" (hope that's what you want) is penitenciar.

    An old word that corresponds with "correre" etc. is the Romanian verb "a cure".

    :) robbie
    Where did you take this verb from, 'a cure', Robbie?!:confused:

    A veni, a vesti, a dormi (4th conj), a cumra.
     
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    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    These are some proper nouns and names that have different stress in Catalan and Spanish. Feel free to add equivalences in the other Romance languages.

    Geography
    els Carpats - los Cárpatos
    l'Hilaia - el Himalaya
    l'Eufrates - el Éufrates
    konos - Miconos
    el Tibet - el bet
    Etiòpia - Etioa
    Ucraïna - Ucrania
    ssora - Basora
    Hèlsinki - Helsinki
    ev - Kiev
    Marràqueix - Marrakech
    Munic - nich
    Zuric - rich

    Greek names

    Agamèmnon - Agamenón
    Aristides - Arístides
    Arquimedes - Arquímedes
    Àtila - Atila
    Cèrber - Cerbero (el ca Cèrber - el can Cerbero)
    bele - Cibeles
    Cleòpatra - Cleopatra
    mocles - Damocles (l'espasa de mocles - la espada de Damocles)
    Èdip - Edipo (el complex d'Èdip - el complejo de Edipo)
    Èsquil - Esquilo
    racles - Heracles
    son - Jasón

    Names from other origins

    Espàrtac - Espartaco
    fet - Jafet
    Kefren - Kefrén

    el premi Nobel - el premio Nobel
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Ooops, you're right :thumbsup:

    I add too:

    Portuguese: rebro
    Spanish: cerebro

    Catalan and Italian derive it from cerebellum so stress is not comparable.
     

    Circunflejo

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Castilla
    Port Ronia or Ronia, Sp Romania or Romaa , It Romania, Cat Romania, Ro România
    If I'm getting it right, you are talking about the country called in English Romania. In that case, in Spanish, it would be Rumaa; neither Romania nor Romaa.

    Port: telefone, Sp: teléfono
    Catalán: tefon.

    el premi Nobel - el premio Nobel
    Most Spanish speaking people in Spain (I don't know about how's pronounced in other Spanish speaking countries) pronounces it Nobel as you said but I'd like to say that if we follow Spanish pronounciation rules, it should be Nobel. I recall a teacher that always corrected the students that pronounced it Nobel saying them that they should say Nobel because that was the correct pronounciation in Spanish. Hi didn't have a big success as students kept saying Nobel out of his classes but, at least, he made us aware of the theoretical correct pronounciation. I must say I've heard someone else pronouncing it Nobel but it's a rare pronounciation in Spanish.

    Spanish: alcohol
    This is another case in which theory and practice don't always agree. In theory, pronounciation in Spanish should be alcohol. However, many people pronounce a single /o/ so instead of alcohol, they pronounce alcol but alcol isn't (yet) an accepted word to write.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (US Northeast)
    These are some proper nouns and names that have different stress in Catalan and Spanish. Feel free to add equivalences in the other Romance languages.

    Geography
    els Carpats - los Cárpatos - les Carpates
    l'Hilaia - el Himalaya - les Himalayas
    l'Eufrates - el Éufrates - l'Euphrate
    konos - Miconos - Mikonos
    el Tibet - el bet - le Tibet
    Etiòpia - Etioa - l'Éthiopie
    Ucraïna - Ucrania - l'Ukraine
    ssora - Basora - Bassorah
    Hèlsinki - Helsinki - Helsinki
    ev - Kiev - ev
    Marràqueix - Marrakech - Marrakech
    Munic - nich . Munich
    Zuric - rich - Zurich

    Greek names

    Agamèmnon - Agamenón - Agamemnon
    Aristides - Arístides - Aristides
    Arquimedes - Arquímedes - Archimède
    Àtila - Atila -Attila
    Cèrber - Cerbero (el ca Cèrber - el can Cerbero) - Cerbère
    bele - Cibeles - Cybèle
    Cleòpatra - Cleopatra - Cléopâtre
    mocles - Damocles (l'espasa de mocles - la espada de Damocles) - l'épée de Damoclès
    Èdip - Edipo (el complex d'Èdip - el complejo de Edipo) - le complexe d'Œdipe
    Èsquil - Esquilo - Eschyle
    racles - Heracles - Héraclès
    son - Jasón - Jason

    Names from other origins

    Espàrtac - Espartaco - Spartacus
    fet - Jafet - Japhet
    Kefren - Kefrén - Khéphen

    el premi Nobel - el premio Nobel - le prix Nobel
    Added the French
     
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