Sanskrit, Tamil: Kumarakah/kumarakal

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john welch

Senior Member
English-Australian creole
I added the Tamil suffix -kal to "kumara-" and found the word exists. Probably it means princes, young men, heirs. However a comment on Sanskrit has the word as babies but I can't find that in a Skr dictionary. Is that a false comment and does "kumarakal" mean princes, young men, heirs ?
 
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  • fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    kumārá means ʻboyʼ, 'little boy', 'prince' in Sanskrit, from the Rig Veda onwards. You can find it in any Sanskrit dictionary.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    The plural ending is Tamil not Sanskrit and you should share your reference to "babies". Then your question and answers to you will sarisfy both you and the ones who respond to it.
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM - Prabhupada

    prabhupadabooks.com/pdf/SB6.3.pdf

    ... ; iisan-there came to be; sapta-seven; ___________________kumarakal;-babies;____ te-they; api-although; ca-also; ...
    -------------
    Yes I knowi -kal is not a Skr suffix. I'm just double-checking to make sure that Tamil kumarakal is not an abnormal , borrowed word in Skr.. Also I would like a definite answer that Tamil kumarakal has the suggested meanings.
    Thank you.

     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    Therein lies the problem. You are misreading "kumārakāḥ" as "kumarakal". "kumārakāḥ" is a diminutive plural of "kumārá" and means "little boys" or babies in this context. It's not Tamil.
     
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    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    OK thanks. So "dhanaka" has this type of diminutive plural, in Skr.
    The implication is that "kumarakal" is the correct Tamil word-form. Could someone confirm that?
     

    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    OK thanks. So "dhanaka" has this type of diminutive plural, in Skr.
    The implication is that "kumarakal" is the correct Tamil word-form. Could someone confirm that?
    Cher Monsieur, kumarakaL does not exist in Tamil. Tamil suffixes were meant for Tamil words, à l'origine.
    -kaL, not -kal, is the plural suffix. It works fine for Tamil words: 'siruvan' small boy, 'siruvarkaL' small boys. Notice that even here, the final n of siruvan becomes r before -kaL. This is also not an invariable rule.
    As mundiya ji has noted, it was not kumaarakal, but kumaarakaah to start with, which is the plural of kumaaraka, small boy.
    It is necessary to study grammar to some extent to understand plural formation in Tamil and Sanskrit.:)
     
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    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    merci,
    Koroshi dialect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koroshi_dialect
    The speakers of Koroshi live in scattered pockets in Southern Iranian Fars province. ... The plural is marked by the suffixes "-gal"
    -------
    Persian Kamboja traders were in S India from 2300 BP. Perhaps they influenced kumaarakaL . Does the pronunciation sound like kumaarakull as in "gull"?
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Perhaps they influenced kumaarakaL .
    Didn't Gope just tell you that there is no such word?

    Anyway, the plural marker –gal occurs in several of the South-West Iranian languages. The received wisdom is that it derives from Old Persian gṛda- “people” (the development of –rd- to –l- is regular in SW Iranian). So not connected with Dravidian -kaḷ.
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    In #8 Gope wrote kum aa ra so I thought he was emphasising it is no pronounced kum a ra. As also he emphasised ka L is not ka l .
    Her is one from Tamil Nadu:
    1. kumarakal - Beneficiary Details

      iay.nic.in/netiay/benificiary_detail.aspx?reg_no=TN-22-014...

      District DINDIGUL. Block :KODAIKANAL.e : Beneficiary Name :KUMARAKAL.

    If any of the Fars Baluchi and Devani speakers used -gal in Tamil Nadu, then isn't it possible that the final -l or -L came from that contact?
     
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    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    The plural suffix -kaḷ occurs across the board in Dravidian. It goes back to proto-Dravidian and cannot be a borrowing from a modern Iranian language.
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    Then why is it that " kumarakaL does not exist in Tamil."? Could you tell me the Tamil correct plural for kumaara?
    "Epigraphically the Dravidian languages have been attested since the 2nd century BCE. " This may allow for Persianl influence
    from a century prior to the recorded texts.
     
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    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    There are a few results online for "kumarakal" (probably kumārakāla "son of the god Kāla/Shiva") and "kumarakali" (probably kumārakālī "son of the goddess Kālī"). In which case, neither has the Tamil plural suffix -kaL.
     

    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    In #8 Gope wrote kum aa ra so I thought he was emphasising it is no pronounced kum a ra. As also he emphasised ka L is not ka l .
    Her is one from Tamil Nadu:
    1. kumarakal - Beneficiary Details

      iay.nic.in/netiay/benificiary_detail.aspx?reg_no=TN-22-014...

      District DINDIGUL. Block :KODAIKANAL.e : Beneficiary Name :KUMARAKAL.

    I wrote aa for long a since I don't have the appropriate diacritical marks in my tablet. And I wrote L to mean that it is a retroflex consonant, written as ள், not ல். So I was saying kumarakal, குமரகல், does not exist in Tamil.
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    Yes. My memory is no good - I forgot that -gal is a Tamil suffix, which was my real interest.
    Nepali has a similar collective -gal. : Kumarigal and other location names. The info on word-shift to -gal was helpful.
    So then : kumaragal is the correct Tamil plural?
     

    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    Yes. My memory is no good - I forgot that -gal is a Tamil suffix, which was my real interest.
    Nepali has a similar collective -gal. : Kumarigal and other location names. The info on word-shift to -gal was helpful.
    So then : kumaragal is the correct Tamil plural?
    No, kumaragal does not exist in Tamil.
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
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    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    Just because a word shows up on Google doesn't mean it's correct. Nepali and Tamil belong to different language families. What is your objective in combining kumārī with -gal or -gaL?
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    I agree about google and so I posted to double-check the false Skr * kumarakal.
    But google gives 5 "kumarigal" quotes, so some-one is using false Tamil, including The Hindu :
    The Hindu : In Coimbatore Today
    www.thehindu.com/2004/03/07/stories/2004030710860300.htm
    Prajaapitha Brahma Kumarigal Eswarya Vishwa Vidyalayam: ... TamilNadu



    Bremma Kumarigal Meditation Center - About - Google+
    https://plus.google.com/100546705721044804490/about
    Bremma Kumarigal Meditation Center . Colony Thoothukudi, Tamil Nadu ...
    ------
    This thread may be closed if I venture too far into speculation. Kumara is prince in Bali Indonesia. Cammeray is comrades , -gal male collective suffix in east Australia..
    ( Cammeraygal : tribal country of Sydney. ) So probably the theory relates to Tamil language of 500- 1000 BP.
     

    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    I agree about google and so I posted to double-check the false Skr * kumarakal.
    But google gives 5 "kumarigal" quotes, so some-one is using false Tamil, including The Hindu :
    The Hindu : In Coimbatore Today
    www.thehindu.com/2004/03/07/stories/2004030710860300.htm
    Prajaapitha Brahma Kumarigal Eswarya Vishwa Vidyalayam: ... TamilNadu



    Bremma Kumarigal Meditation Center - About - Google+
    https://plus.google.com/100546705721044804490/about
    Bremma Kumarigal Meditation Center . Colony Thoothukudi, Tamil Nadu ...
    ------
    This thread may be closed if I venture too far into speculation. Kumara is prince in Bali Indonesia. Cammeray is comrades , -gal male collective suffix in east Australia..
    ( Cammeraygal : tribal country of Sydney. ) So probably the theory relates to Tamil language of 500- 1000 BP.
    But your original question is about kamarakal. And you are citing kumarigal now. Kumarigal is an altogether different proposition. :)
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    I was asking about the correct Tamil plural. And still am asking. If kumarigal is correct then why is kumaragal not correct?
    If kumarigal is incorrect then why are all these quotes using it?
    :eek:
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    As our Expert on Tamil said, there is no such a word. Your examples are about brahmakumaris = a religious sect. It's not a Tamil word, let's say it amounts to BRAHMA KUMARI'S in English where the English plural "s" is added to a foreign word, a proper name.
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    Then if Brahma Kumarigal use that word , then it is is usable. Like these 2 that I posted:
    Buy Dangerous Girls 3 In 1 (Kolaigara Kumarigal / Kodura ...
    600024.com/.../dangerous-girls-3-in-1-kolaigara-kumarigal-kodura-kola...Tamil Movie DVD

    Vasantham irandu part2 - tamilkam - peperonity.com
    peperonity.com/go/sites/mview/tamilkam/34479289
    Makanaich chuttri oru kumarigal pattaalamae irunthathu.
    ------
    I
    f a Tamil history book mentions 2 kumara, how would it express that plural ?
    Another Tamil speaker tells me that it would be kumarakal.
    In English any foreign noun (such a 2 Hindu: Hindus ) can be expressed. So please , why is it so complex to say : " 2 kumara " in Tami.?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I can see that in both links it is still kumari. Not kumara.

    The rest about kumara and a Tamil history book and plural I can't answer. I am not conversant with Tamil. Perhaps when kumara is taken as a foreign word the Tamil suffix can be used to make a plural. Let's wait for Mr. Gope's explanation.
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    Yes I will wait.
    It seems that you suggest that for example " 2 Maharani" can be spoken by Tamil people but not the word " 2 Maharaja ".......
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I'll wait too. I don't know Tamil, only Sanskrit. I think Tamil has its own words for both maharaja and maharani. Those examples with kumaarii are not equivalent to maharani because they are not just feminine of kumaar. It's brahma kumaarii = an adjective or an adjectival noun and it is a proper name here from Sanskrit which is used in Tamil.
     

    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    I can see that in both links it is still kumari. Not kumara.

    The rest about kumara and a Tamil history book and plural I can't answer. I am not conversant with Tamil. Perhaps when kumara is taken as a foreign word the Tamil suffix can be used to make a plural. Let's wait for Mr. Gope's explanation.
    I am absolutely in the dark about how much Monsieur John Welch is aquainted with Tamil language, so I am hoping to make things as easy as possible. Kumaara is a Sanskrit word. When and if used in Tamil it takes the Tamil nominative (singular) ending -n and becomes kumaaran. But when adding the plural suffix -kaL the final n of kumaaran changes to r and kumaararkaL is the plural of kumaaran. Although written as kumaararkaL, the pronunciation is kumaarargaL. Even proper names change in this way: Raama-Raaman-RaamarkaL, pron. as RaamargaL. Same with Sankara, and so on.
    Mahaaraajaa is a Sanskrit word, MahaaraaNii too. If used in Tamil their plurals are MahaaraajaakkaL, and mahaaraaNikaL. Notice the -kk- in mahaaraajaakkaL, which means the k is pronounced as k, but in mahaaraaNikaL the k is pronounced as G.
    In short, there are "if ... then" rules to be learnt for correctly formulating plurals and to pronounce them correctly. In Tamil the letter k is pronounced both as k and as g, the letter T is pronounced both as T and as D, and so on (there are "if ... then" rules here too).:)
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    eh bien beaucoup Gope. Your answer is exactly what I hoped it would be.
    " ..written as kumaararkaL, the pronunciation is kumaarargaL.,,"
    Magnifique.
    :) :D :)
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    Excellent post, Gope jii. So, for "kumaarii" would I be right in guessing that the Tamil plural is "kumaarikaL" (pronounced "kumaarigaL")?
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    Excellent post mundiyaji.
    : "Excellent post, Gope jii. So, for "kumaarii" would I be right in guessing that the Tamil plural is "kumaarikaL" (pronounced "kumaarigaL")?"
    :cool:
     

    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    Thanks very much, Monsieur Welch, and mundiyaji. I am glad my post was helpful.
    You both are absolutely right: kumaarii the Sanskrit word becomes kumaari (short i) in Tamil, and the plural is kumaarikal, pronounced kumaarigaL.:)
     

    john welch

    Senior Member
    English-Australian creole
    Types of Pranāma


    A Mohiniattam dancer making anamaste gesture​

    There are six types of Pranam:

    • Ashtangana (touching the ground with knees, belly, chest, hands, elbows, chin, nose, temple).
    • Shastanga (touching the ground with toes, knees, hands, chin, nose).
    • Panchanga (touching the ground with knees, chest, chin, temple, forehead).
    • Dandavata (bowing forehead down and touching the ground).
    • Namaskar (folded hands touching the forehead).
    • Abhinandan (bending forward with folded hands touching the chest).-
    • -------------
    • गोप्य
    • मान्द्य
     
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    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Sorry guys, I don't mean to interrupt your flow. Just a tiny, maybe even inconsequential correction:

    Mahaaraajaa is a Sanskrit word, MahaaraaNii too.
    Actually, mahaaraanii is not (proper) Sanskrit. The "raanii/raaNii" part is modern IA. The proper Sanskrit feminine of "raajaa" is "raajñii".
     

    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    kumaarii the Sanskrit word becomes kumaari (short i) in Tamil, and the plural is kumaarikal, pronounced kumaarigaL.:)
    Thanks for the information, Gope. This is probably a typo, but just to make sure, is the word supposed to be kumaarikaL instead of kumaarikal?
     

    Gope

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    Sorry guys, I don't mean to interrupt your flow. Just a tiny, maybe even inconsequential correction:



    Actually, mahaaraanii is not (proper) Sanskrit. The "raanii/raaNii" part is modern IA. The proper Sanskrit feminine of "raajaa" is "raajñii".
    Thanks for the timely precision, Dib SaaHib, it is indeed as you have pointed out. I should have said "mahaaraanii is of Sanskritic origin" instead of "mahaaraanii is a Sanskrit word".:)
     

    sanskrut_bhashik

    Member
    Marathi
    Kumar is basically Sanskrit. -kal, -gal is plural suffix in Dravidian languages of south India.

    There are many words in Tamil,(even more in) other Dravidian languages which are from Sanskrit.

    E..g. Varsh (year) - not Varsha (rain),is Sanskrit, "Varshangal/varshankal" in Dravidian languages means "years".

    I do not know whether Kumarakal is a word in Tamil. But it could be derived as explained earlier. How commonly "kumarakal" is used in Tamil, I am not aware.

    But Kumar has synonym in Sanskrit-derived languages, i.e. "Kuvara, kuvari". It may be of Prakrit origin or even from Tamil or other Dravidian languages.

    Kuvara/kuvari stands for unmarried/virgin boy/girl. This word is very common in many north Indian languages. So common that many Bollywood uses this word in every other song.
     

    sanskrut_bhashik

    Member
    Marathi
    Moreover, Kumar/Kumari is very common "name" or part of name of a person. E.g. Kumar Sanu, where Kumar is first name. Ashok Kumar, Ravikumar Sharma where it is a part of name. It can be last name also.
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    I don't consider "kumaara" and "ku.nvaaraa" to be exact synonyms. "kumaara" has a wider range in meaning.

    Also, Gope jii has explained that the word in Tamil is "kumaararkaL" and not "kumarakal".
     

    sanskrut_bhashik

    Member
    Marathi
    Kumar in Sanskrit is commonly for young men, esp. Unmarried. For babies, I am not sure if this word is used , if used it is very infrequent. 'Shishu' is more commonly used for babies.
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    "kumaara" is also for the god Skanda, the god Agni, a son, and a prince. The latter is probably the meaning in mind when used as a name nowadays.
     
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    sanskrut_bhashik

    Member
    Marathi
    I don't consider "kumaara" and "ku.nvaaraa" to be exact synonyms. "kumaara" has a wider range in meaning.

    Also, Gope jii has explained that the word in Tamil is "kumaararkaL" and not "kumarakal".
    Yes, not exact meanings. But they specify same object i.e. young male.

    It has been explaned nicely earlier. I skipped it.

    Also, Sanskrit is notorious for completely unrelated meanings of the same word.
     
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    sanskrut_bhashik

    Member
    Marathi
    I am absolutely in the dark about how much Monsieur John Welch is aquainted with Tamil language, so I am hoping to make things as easy as possible. Kumaara is a Sanskrit word. When and if used in Tamil it takes the Tamil nominative (singular) ending -n and becomes kumaaran. But when adding the plural suffix -kaL the final n of kumaaran changes to r and kumaararkaL is the plural of kumaaran. Although written as kumaararkaL, the pronunciation is kumaarargaL. Even proper names change in this way: Raama-Raaman-RaamarkaL, pron. as RaamargaL. Same with Sankara, and so on.
    Mahaaraajaa is a Sanskrit word, MahaaraaNii too. If used in Tamil their plurals are MahaaraajaakkaL, and mahaaraaNikaL. Notice the -kk- in mahaaraajaakkaL, which means the k is pronounced as k, but in mahaaraaNikaL the k is pronounced as G.
    In short, there are "if ... then" rules to be learnt for correctly formulating plurals and to pronounce them correctly. In Tamil the letter k is pronounced both as k and as g, the letter T is pronounced both as T and as D, and so on (there are "if ... then" rules here too).:)
    Gope ji, I have a question.

    Why plural of 'nimish' (the time taken to splash an eyelid, short period of time) is 'nimishankal '(-gal) and not 'nimisharkal' (-gal)?

    I think nimish is also Sanskrit. Similarly, Pushpangal? (Pushpa is Sanskrit but again root word 'pu' is Tamil.)
     

    Gop

    Member
    Tamil
    The Tamil singular is nimisham (more commonly nimiDam), a minute. The plural is nimiDam+kaL = nimiDangaL.
    Similarly pushpam, pushpangaL.
     
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