Sashiageru - usage

Nino83

Senior Member
Italian
みなさん、こんにちは。

My book says that the form -te sashiageru is avoided (for example okutte sashiageru) because it means "I'm giving you a favour" and can sound a bit impolite.
Is this valid only for the form -te sashiageru or also for the verb sashiageru in general?

For example, are these sentences considered impolite?

Watashi no tomodachi wa sensei ni tegami o sashiagemashita. 私の友達は先生に手紙を差し上げました。
Anata ni kore o sashiagemasu. あなたにこれを差し上げます。

ありがとうございます
 
  • frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    okutte sashiageru) because it means "I'm giving you a favour" and can sound a bit impolite.
    Oof, it's a mystery.:eek: Okutte sashiageru must be as very polite as I would use it only once a year.
    (いいんだよね?正式にはダメとかあります?)

    私の友達は先生に手紙を差し上げました。
    あなたにこれを差し上げます。
    I think they must be very polite, though..(だよね?) I'm sure they're more okay than the first.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    I'm sure they're more okay than the first.
    Thanks, frequency!
    I didn't understand wether -te sashiageru is rude or not. Did the author of the book say something wrong or a bit inaccurate?
    It is repeated in two different chapters of the book (the one about the verb "to give" and the one about "keigo").
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    I report what it is written in my book (four sentences).
    Source: Yoko Kubota, "Grammatica di Giapponese Moderno".
    Sebbene esiste la forma onorifica V-te sashiageru (p. es. okutte sashiageru), essa può suonare impertinente in quanto implica "le faccio un favore". Al suo posto si preferiscono altre forme come o okuri itashimasu (vedi Cap. X).
    page 152
    Quanto alla frase con V-te sashiageru, cioè "Le faccio il favore di", come si è detto prima, essa suona presuntuosa se viene indirizzata ad un superiore. Si preferisce invece una forma umile: ad esempio, per dire "Le faccio un tè" non si usa quasi mai "Ocha o irete sashiagemasu", bensì "Ocha o oire shimasu" o "Ocha o oire itashimasu".
    page 248-249
    Even though there is the onorific form V-te sashiageru (e.g. okutte sashiageru), it could sound impertinent because it implies "I give you a favour". In place of it other forms are preferred, like o okuri itashimasu.
    As for the sentence with V-te sashiageru, i.e "I give you a favour", as it was said earlier in the book, it sounds presumptuous if it's directed to your boss. On the contrary a humble form is preferred: for example, to say "I prepare a tea for you" one doesn't use "Ocha o irete sashiagemasu", but "Ocha o oire shimasu" or "Ocha o oire itashimasu".
     

    zlhndbfy

    New Member
    Japanese - Japan
    -te sashiageru does not always sound rude, but somethimes, especially when
    you are speaking to your superiors (teacher, boss, etc.), it could sound impolite.
    On the other hand, the "humble form" is versatile and sounds polite in any situations.
    So I guess it makes sense to avoid -te sashiageru when you're in doubt.

    By the way, you can use sashiageru itself without such considerations when you are
    actually offering something to the other party. So your two examples are quite safe
    to use in any situations.

    Hope this helps.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    -te sashiageru does not always sound rude, but somethimes, especially when you are speaking to your superiors (teacher, boss, etc.), it could sound impolite.
    By the way, you can use sashiageru itself without such considerations when you are actually offering something to the other party. So your two examples are quite safe to use in any situations.
    Your explanation is very clear.
    Thank you very much, zlhndbfy!
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    So, if one meets His Majesty the Emperor in the street or at the pub (I know, it is not likely to happen) one can say biiru o sashiagete mo ii desuka but it's better not to say ocha o irete sashiagete mo ii desuka?
    When you speak to your parents or grandparents, or to your girlfriend's (or boyfriend's) relatives, do you use humble forms or is the -masu form sufficient in these cases?
     

    DaylightDelight

    Senior Member
    Japanese - Tokyo
    These days, I don't think it is very common to speak to ones (real) parents with keigo.
    I myself have never used keigo to my parents or my late grand parents.
    I usually use -desu -masu form when I speak to my uncles and aunts, and cousins
    who are older than me by maybe 10 years or so. It's just as I speak to any people
    older than I.
    I think I used humble forms when I first met my wife's parents (and a few times after that),
    but these days it's just -desu/-masu.
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    My book says that the form -te sashiageru is avoided (for example okutte sashiageru) because it means "I'm giving you a favour" and can sound a bit impolite.
    I've finally noticed what this means.
    Start with this one: 電話します。 (Normal)

    電話してあげます。
    I specially/exclusively call you. I'm superior and will make a time especially to call you. This is sometimes impolite.

    More impolite is, 電話してやる。Almost vulgar.

    して差し上げる is just the polite form of these impolite forms. lol
    That's why 私はあなたに電話して差し上げます is impolite because, without 差し上げる, this means 電話してあげる・してやる。


    差し上げる is nice when you want to make あげる more polite.
    Then what is this あげる? This is when I (frequency) ask somebody to do that for you.
    I ask 810 to give you a ride: ニーノを送って差し上げてください。(I'm speaking to 810.)
    This is very okay, because I'm saying ニーノを送ってあげてください。 in a polite way. If I say to you directly (あなたを)送って差し上げます?Indeed, this may be a bit weird.

    But note that, strangely, お電話差し上げます。 is very okay. (These kind of things are really bothersome to all of us, including natives.)

    And therefore,
    one can say biiru o sashiagete mo ii desuka? but it's better not to say ocha o irete sashiagete mo ii desuka?
    I think both are okay.

    Especially to your girlfriend, I recommend you not to use さしあげる because it's better to avoid making a superior-inferior relationship.:D
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    These days, I don't think it is very common to speak to ones (real) parents with keigo.
    I think I used humble forms when I first met my wife's parents (and a few times after that), but these days it's just -desu/-masu.
    Thank you, DaylightDelight!
    I think both are okay.
    I'll ask him! :)
    Especially to your girlfriend, I recommend you not to use さしあげる because it's better to avoid making a superior-inferior relationship.:D
    Ahah, right! (It would be like addressing partners and friends as "Lei" or "vous" :thumbsup:)
    I ask 810 to give you a ride: ニーノを送って差し上げてください。(I'm speaking to 810.)
    This is very okay, because I'm saying ニーノを送ってあげてください。 in a polite way. If I say to you directly (あなたを)送って差し上げます?Indeed, this may be a bit weird.
    Ah, wow, now I understand! (finally! :D)
    Thank you!
    In the first case you're asking "please, can you give him a ride" (can you do it for him, for me etc.) while in the second case you're saying "hey, listen, I'm giving you a ride" i.e "I'm doing it even though I didn't feel doing it, I didn't want to do it".
    Maybe (??) I understood how the verb "ageru" works. :rolleyes:
    Can I ask other two questions on this matter?
    1) The difference between "I'm doing something for you (and I want to do it)" and "I'm doing you the favour (I didn't want to do it)" depends on the tone?
    For example, if I say (あなたを)送って差しあげたいです or (あなたを)送って差しあげましょう, would it have always the second meaning (I'm doing you a favour)?
    2) Is "ageru" necessary in order to say that something is being done for, on behalf of somebody?
    For example:
    I baked you a cake/I baked a cake for you.
    I bought you an ice cream/I bought an ice cream for you.
    Are the sentences without "ageru" correct? I.e, is the postposition に sufficient to translate the English "for" (or the dative of advantage, for those verbs which can take double objects)?
    君にケーキを焼いてあげた。
    君にジェラートを買ってあげた。
    君にケーキを焼いた。 (?)
    君にジェラートを買った。 (?)
     
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    DaylightDelight

    Senior Member
    Japanese - Tokyo
    Nino83, let me clarify this one thing:
    The whole point is that してさしあげる can sound impolite in certain situations,
    and not that してさしあげる per se is rude or anything.

    1) The difference between "I'm doing something for you (and I want to do it)" and "I'm doing you the favour (I didn't want to do it)" depends on the tone?
    Tone, relationship between the speaker and the receiver, or even the mood of the receiver, etc.
    Even us native speakers cannot be 100% certain.

    君にケーキを焼いた。 (?)
    君にジェラートを買った。 (?)
    Yes, these are completely correct and passable. However, compared to あげた variations,
    they sound like the speaker is just stating a plain fact that he did something.
    On the other hand, 焼いてあげた/買ってあげた variations sound like the speaker
    is putting a little more emphasis on "for you".
    So whether the receiver thinks 'Ooh, he did it just for me. Great!', or 'Ugh, he's trying to
    make a favor of it. Sucks!' depends on the situation and their relationship.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Tone, relationship between the speaker and the receiver, or even the mood of the receiver, etc.
    Even us native speakers cannot be 100% certain.
    So whether the receiver thinks 'Ooh, he did it just for me. Great!', or 'Ugh, he's trying to
    make a favor of it. Sucks!' depends on the situation and their relationship.
    Thank you very much, DaylightDelight.
    ちゃんと説明した。 (ちゃんと説明してくれた。 (?))
     

    DaylightDelight

    Senior Member
    Japanese - Tokyo
    No problem.
    Now, ちゃんと説明した sounds like you're just stating the fact I've explained something to you.
    On the other hand, 説明してくれた sounds like you're expressing some gratitude for me ;)
    (You know, くれた is the counterpart of あげた, from the viewpoint of the receiver).

    Traditionally, we are told not to make big things of something we did for others,
    but should always acknowledge something others did for us.
    So it's better to use less あげる and くれた more if you want to sound more polite.

    It's not about the language, but our culture.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    So it's better to use less あげる and くれた more if you want to sound more polite.
    It's not about the language, but our culture.
    I read something about amae and omoiyari, quite interesting. :thumbsup:
    So, I'd go for ちゃんと説明してくれた.
    Arigatō!
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    "I'm doing it even though I didn't feel doing it, I didn't want to do it".
    Well, if I use してあげる to you: Poor Nino, I'd specially like to do for you because I'm superior to you. I'm not saying that you're an so unlucky guy that I sympathise with you. lol As you said, "Oh well, okay, okay.." is possible, too, in the right context.

    if I say (あなたを)送って差しあげたいです or (あなたを)送って差しあげましょう
    Strangely, to me these are okay. In my opinion, use of たいです and ましょう can make the expression milder, although still containing a "pushy" feeling very slightly. I can't think of other reasons right now.

    2) Is "ageru" necessary in order to say that something is being done for, on behalf of somebody?
    Not really. Sorry for confusion. In the 送る case, I'm encouraging 810 to do that for you. And the point is that I'm showing politeness not to 810, but to you.

    君にケーキを焼いた。
    君にジェラートを買った。
    You're reporting the fact.

    君にケーキを焼いてあげた。
    君にジェラートを買ってあげた。
    They sound you did "special job".
    Moreover, use of あげる suggests that your action relies on your spontaneous will, more strongly than in the usual statements you use 焼いた・買った.

    あげる itself doesn't sound emphasising "for you", but sometimes pushy and has superiority over a hearer. This is the problem in use of 差し上げる(あげる) suggested by the writer.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Strangely, to me these are okay. In my opinion, use of たいです and ましょう can make the expression milder, although still containing a "pushy" feeling very slightly. I can't think of other reasons right now.
    Thanks. So if one is not sure about it, it is better to avoid using -te ageru when addressing directly someone.
     

    DaylightDelight

    Senior Member
    Japanese - Tokyo
    差し上げる is too stiff for friends. 一緒に行ってあげる is just fine.
    However, this gives an impression as if you are going out of your way for your friend.
    For example, if you are asked the way to the park and you're personally taking him/her there,
    then 一緒に行ってあげる is perfectly natural and acceptable.
    Otherwise 一緒に行こう (let's go together) would be better.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    友達と話せば、なんか 一緒に 公園へ行きて差し上げると言った方がいいですか
    パブに行ったほうがいいと思います。行ったら、一杯のビールを買って上げます。 :D

    Getting back to the verb "give", when one makes something unpleasant to someone, the verb "yaru" is used. But if the subject is the recipient of the action, one can't use kureru or morau, because this would mean that the recipient is happy for it, while he is a bit annoyed.
    Let's make an example. It's summer and we're splashing water on each other and frequency, with a big splash of water, makes my T-shirt all wet.

    彼女は僕のTシャツを濡らした。

    Then I can't say 彼女は僕のTシャツを濡らしてくれた! "(あなたは)僕のTシャツを濡らしてくれた!" because it seems that I'm happy, that I received a favour!
    Must I use the passive? 僕のTシャツは彼女に濡らしてやれた! 僕のTシャツは(あなたに)濡らしてやれた!
    Or is there another verb like "kureru" or "morau" but for unwanted, unexpected actions?
    While, the speaker can say 君のTシャツを濡らしてやりましょう!, is it right?
     
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    DaylightDelight

    Senior Member
    Japanese - Tokyo
    Then I can't say 彼女は僕のTシャツを濡らしてくれた! "(あなたは)僕のTシャツを濡らしてくれた!" because it seem that I'm happy, that I received a favour!
    Well, actually we say this quite often, in ironical expression.
    You're correct that くれた is usually used by the receiver in acknowledgement of a favor.
    However, if one uses くれた in undesirable situation, then it's understood that
    the person is speaking ironically.
    Even Japanese children often get confused when adults say ~してくれた in obviously
    undesirable situations.

    To directly express one's annoyance, we say (誰か)に濡らされた.

    the speaker can say 君のTシャツを濡らしてやりましょう!, is it right?
    While grammatically correct, this sounds a bit funny, because やる conveys some impoliteness
    and ましょう conveys some politeness.
    If you want to sound menacing, it's 濡らしてやろう (or simply 濡らしてやる to express your decision).
    If you want to sound menacing politely (ironically, maybe?), it's 濡らしてあげましょう.
     

    Nino83

    Senior Member
    Italian
    While grammatically correct, this sounds a bit funny, because やる conveys some impoliteness and ましょう conveys some politeness.
    Ahah, true! Or better, I could say "おやりいたす" (which probably doesn't exist)! :D
    However, if one uses くれた in undesirable situation, then it's understood that the person is speaking ironically.
    Interesting!
    To directly express one's annoyance, we say (誰か)に濡らされた.
    Ah, ok. So "僕のTシャツは濡らされた!" is similar to its ironic variant 僕のTシャツを濡らしてくれた!
    Thanks for the info! :thumbsup:
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Thanks. So if one is not sure about it, it is better to avoid using -te ageru when addressing directly someone.
    U~~m, actually, you don't need to be too nervous about using it.
    If your girlfriend is a sensitive woman, she may not like hearing あげる from you. But there are many people who don't care about it very much, and that 差し上げる would be a bit trouble or problematic in a business relationship.;)

    一緒に公園へ行きて差し上げる
    Learner, this is grammatically correct. It sounds cool because it's classic Japanese + a very polite form. I'd ask you when I heard it from you; where did you learn it?

    彼女は僕のTシャツを濡らしてくれた! "(あなたは)僕のTシャツを濡らしてくれた!"
    くれた can sometimes show your anger, too. I mistakenly hosed you. You can say: Frequencyがやってくれたな:mad:
     
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