Saudade / Hiraeth

Welsh_Sion

Senior Member
Welsh - Northern
Just a quick note to share this with lusophones (apologies, but if you do answer this in portugês, I will not be able to understand you ...), but we often make the comparison that saudade/hiraeth are at one and the same time untranslatable but also equivalent to each other.

Do you agree / disagree?

Memoir: Hiraeth – Myth, Memory, Magic
 
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  • I've just learnt that Hiraeth is a Welsh word with no translation into English.
    I think we can compare Hiraeth and Saudade for things like places, houses and related things.
    I wonder if it also works with people.

     
    I think they have a lot in common, yes. Maybe they are equivalent.
    The text you provide is actually interesting, I could easily use parts of it to describe 'saudades' (I found expressions like "sweet sadness" specially interesting).

    To me, 'saudades' is like a "dialetic state of beeing", or feeling, in wich one faces a never dying hope for being connected with the "warm and tender" promises of life as well as the realization that they can never be fully fulfilled. [?]

    It can and often is manifested regarding "simple" things like specific places, moments in life, people, food...
    It can more of a "general state of mind".

    Sometimes one can (re)make, or rather, to "compensate" this lack of "connection" (matar saudades); or one can simply entertain the idea of doing that (check the song "Chega de Saudade", if you want to).

    And sometimes one wanders erratically in his own feelings, maybe slightly hopeful or / and fatalistic (check "Canção dos Verdes Anos" if you want to).
     
    @Welsh_Sion 'Saudade' means a certain positive emotion: to express saudade is to imply that you care. Is 'hiraeth' positive too? This is what I find distinctive about the meaning of the Portuguese phrase in comparison with similar words from other languages.
     
    @Welsh_Sion 'Saudade' means a certain positive emotion: to express saudade is to imply that you care. Is 'hiraeth' positive too? This is what I find distinctive about the meaning of the Portuguese phrase in comparison with similar words from other languages.

    Positive? Interesting.
    I would say "complex" at least, in the true sense of the word (yes, it has "positive" elements, I am not sure they are always prevalent).
    But, for sure, what you say about expressing saudade as a way to imply imply that you care is very important and true.
    So, maybe positive in that sense, yes.
     
    I think we are approaching this from similar angles - hence my interpretation that saudade is the closest thing possible to hiraeth (and vice versa). Those of other languages outside our own, struggle for a definition, don't you think?

    I suppose the idea must be some sort of 'bittersweet longing' (for Lusitania, for Cymru) also works - someone already mentioned a 'sweet sadness' above. Can it not be argued that only a culture which has saudade can also have songs of the fado genre? (I can't say that we have the equivalent in Welsh or Wales - but there is a natural melancholy to much of our national mood, if I am permitted a gross oversimplification. That's not to say the Portuguese are a naturally morose people either - far from it, from the ones I know personally! Maybe Galicians also have this feeling, too ...)

    Hiraeth is not so much related to a person, although if they symbolise/personify part of our culture we have lost and are unable to reclaim, then I guess we can feel hiraeth, here too. But, and, I'm sure, PT will agree with me here, it's not a question of 'grief' or indeed, 'nostalgia' - it's that bittersweetness again for another lost link (to the past).

    I'm glad you enjoyed the article. Perhaps someone would like to take up the baton and write an extensive piece on the similarities and differences of PT/CYM experiences of saudade and hiraeth. :)
     
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    Not a perfect match, but the "thing" described in the article lies somewhere in between saudades and "banzo". A mild form of banzo, maybe. Regarding quality, nature, it's closer to banzo, although it lacks some complexity: banzo may be simplified to "extreme homesickness" + the desperation for knowing that the homeland or a previous way of life is lost, maybe for good. When it comes to intensity, maybe we're closer to saudades, if I've read it right.
    If I had to pick one to build a metaphor on (no perfect match here, I'm afraid, with either of them), I'd go for banzo.
    Dicionário Online - Dicionário Caldas Aulete - Significado de banzo
    banzo
    Too bad, it lacks that extra flavour brought by the tag "untranslatable".
     
    Saudade has the same meaning everywhere in the lusophone world?

    At least as a translation of missing (I miss you = tenho saudades tuas / de ti or estou com saudade(s) de), definitly yes. When it comes to those deeper meanings, it's hard to say, but I would say it has the same meaning by in large. Still, different individuals have different interpretations of this particular word (and others, of course), so, probably, different cultures may have different twists and flavors.

    Actually (here I go again), there is a very famous song from a lusophone country all about this word, and it's not even in portuguese (it is in a creoule language). I'm refering to Sodade, a song from Cape Verde.

    (I believe songs work very well to complement what words can not say about this particular concept of saudade).
     
    Actually (here I go again), there is a very famous song from a lusophone country all about this word, and it's not even in portuguese (it is in a creoule language). I'm refering to Sodade, a song from Cape Verde.
    ... by Cesária Évora. :)
     
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