se les ofrece el resumen

Nomadam

New Member
Chinese
I am learning Spanish by myself, and the “se + me, te, le, les or nos (indirect object) + verb” structure has been a huge obstacle.

Here is a sentence that seems to use this structure.
A) A continuación se les ofrece el resumen de otra novela suya... (Below is the summary of another novel of his ...)

I am struggling to find out:
1. What is the function so “les” here? Does it mean “a ustedes”?
2. Is this structure the same one as in the sentences below? Both B) and C) means something happens in sudden, to someone's surprise, but A) doesn't.
B) Se me ocurre a mí viajar a España.
C) De repente, a Pablo se le ocurrió una idea.
3. What is the name of this structure? “Pasiva refleja”? I tried to search for explanations in grammar books but failed, since I don't know the exact name of this structure.

Thanks a lot!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • anahiseri

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain) and German (Germany)
    I'm not sure if this is called pasiva refleja, but anyway the se is like an impersonal subject.
    Compare:
    El periodista les ofrece el resumen
    Se les ofrece el resumen

    It's got nothing to do with se me ocurre, ocurrirse is a reflexive verb
     

    ayuda?

    Senior Member
    Nomadam, I understand your difficulty. It is not a normal structure in English either.
    I call it the Whoops-What-Just-Happen!!-(Accidental-No fault-Se)-Factor structure.
    I think the reason why you might not find things like this in intermediate books is because it is a little complicated and could be confusing o_O ; so they avoid this structure altogether most of the time.
    You are obviously beyond that point.

    It does takes a little getting used to, though. Study the examples and information I hunted up and you should get the basic concept. Then, over time, when you find this in your reading, it will become evident to you as you recognize the usage and memorize it for a while. It doesn’t really come naturally. It’s more of a “feel” you develop for it as you go along and might be used most often with set words and situations..
    ▶︎I call it the Whoops-What-Just Happen!!-(Accidental-No fault-Se) structure.

    ▶︎The references to the Passive Voice below are self-explanatory.
    Your English is great! You should have no trouble with the material.

    Re:
    A)
    A continuación se les ofrece el resumen de otra novela suya... (Below is the summary of another novel of his ...)
    [reflexive pronoun + indirect pronoun]
    **les = les a ustedes/les a ellos/ellas

    B) and C) Se me ocurre a mí viajar a España.

    [yes, something sudden or by chance—really sort of the same basic concept]

    passive reflexive? [Well, yes. The reflexive can simply be the reflexive and can be formed by se (Él se llava las manos.)
    Se can also used to indicate the passive voice [see the links]

    Links and References:
    Check out the beautiful image on SpanishDict today! reflexive +indirect object

    Uses of the 'se' pronoun good general site that might help you with the “passive voice se” [“Accidental Se” having the meaning of no fault or sudden]

    "Se"+indirect object+verb+direct object: Accidental grammar - Yabla Spanish - Free Spanish Lessons "Se"+indirect object+verb+direct object: Accidental Se grammar

    Impersonal se Accidental Se (no Fault Se) and Passive Voice Se

    Accidental Reflexive - Lawless Spanish more examples of Accidental Se

    Passive Voice - Spanish Grammar in Context the Passive Voice in Spanish


    Also: [many good sources, including YouTube links]

    Google Search>examples of accidental se in Spanish
    Google Search>examples of no fault se in Spanish
    Google Search>examples of passive se in Spanish
     
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    elprofe

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain)
    Te explico el proceso de inglés a esa oración en español:
    The summary is offered to you
    El resumen es ofrecido a ustedes
    (literal translation)
    El resumen se ofrece a ustedes (from passive to "pasiva refleja")
    El resumen se les ofrece (replacing "a ustedes" with "les")
    Se les ofrece el resumen (placing the subject after the verb)
    :)
     
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    anahiseri

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain) and German (Germany)
    “Accidental Se”
    What's this? It's the first time I see it :confused:
    I've already got used to "pasiva refleja" and the word "adjetiva" to refer to relative sentences (well, I'm not sure), and I know that articles are now called determiners (at least in Spanish), but this is completely new to me.
     

    Nomadam

    New Member
    Chinese
    Nomadam, I understand your difficulty. It is not a normal structure in English either.
    I call it the Whoops-What-Just-Happen!!-(Accidental-No fault-Se)-Factor structure.
    I think the reason why you might not find things like this in intermediate books is because it is a little complicated and could be confusing o_O ; so they avoid this structure altogether most of the time.
    You are obviously beyond that point.

    It does takes a little getting used to, though. Study the examples and information I hunted up and you should get the basic concept. Then, over time, when you find this in your reading, it will become evident to you as you recognize the usage and memorize it for a while. It doesn’t really come naturally. It’s more of a “feel” you develop for it as you go along and might be used most often with set words and situations..
    ▶︎I call it the Whoops-What-Just Happen!!-(Accidental-No fault-Se) structure.

    ▶︎The references to the Passive Voice below are self-explanatory.
    Your English is great! You should have no trouble with the material.

    Re:
    A)
    A continuación se les ofrece el resumen de otra novela suya... (Below is the summary of another novel of his ...)
    [reflexive pronoun + indirect pronoun]
    **les = les a ustedes/les a ellos/ellas

    B) and C) Se me ocurre a mí viajar a España.

    [yes, something sudden or by chance—really sort of the same basic concept]

    passive reflexive? [Well, yes. The reflexive can simply be the reflexive and can be formed by se (Él se llava las manos.)
    Se can also used to indicate the passive voice [see the links]

    Links and References:
    Check out the beautiful image on SpanishDict today! reflexive +indirect object

    Uses of the 'se' pronoun good general site that might help you with the “passive voice se” [“Accidental Se” having the meaning of no fault or sudden]

    "Se"+indirect object+verb+direct object: Accidental grammar - Yabla Spanish - Free Spanish Lessons "Se"+indirect object+verb+direct object: Accidental Se grammar

    Impersonal se Accidental Se (no Fault Se) and Passive Voice Se

    Accidental Reflexive - Lawless Spanish more examples of Accidental Se

    Passive Voice - Spanish Grammar in Context the Passive Voice in Spanish


    Also: [many good sources, including YouTube links]

    Google Search>examples of accidental se in Spanish
    Google Search>examples of no fault se in Spanish
    Google Search>examples of passive se in Spanish
    Thanks for the detailed explanation, ayuda!
    Didn't know it is also called accidental se, no fault se, passive se.
    Guess this is the best part that grammar book cann't offer because most of them are too formal.
     

    Nomadam

    New Member
    Chinese
    Te explico el proceso de inglés a esa oración en español:
    The summary is offered to you
    El resumen es ofrecido a ustedes
    (literal translation)
    El resumen se ofrece a ustedes (from passive to "pasiva refleja")
    El resumen se les ofrece (replacing "a ustedes" with "les")
    Se les ofrece el resumen (placing the subject after the verb)
    :)
    Entiendo! Este es muy fácil para entender, jaja.
    (Wish this sentence is correct :) )
     

    Aviador

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Chile
    First of all, A continuación se les ofrece el resumen de otra novela suya... is an impersonal sentence, a kind of structure that in English does not exist and is therefore difficult for an English speaker to assimilate. In this construction, there is in effect no subject, neither explicit nor tacit, something impossible in English. That particle se is a mere mark of impersonality and has no syntactical function. The verb ofrecer is here, as in every impersonal construction, conjugated in the third singular person.

    ...
    1. What is the function so “les” here? Does it mean “a ustedes”?...
    Yes, les is the pronoun of indirect object, to whom the novel is offered, in this case, a ustedes. The direct object, the thing offered, is el resumen de otra novela suya.

    ...
    2. Is this structure the same one as in the sentences below?...
    B) Se me ocurre a mí viajar a España.
    C) De repente, a Pablo se le ocurrió una idea...
    No. They are no impersonal constructions like the sentence in point number 1. In both Se me ocurre a mí viajar a España and De repente, a Pablo se le ocurrió una idea, there is a pronominal use of the verb ocurrir. Their subjects are viajar a España and una idea respectively, so they aren't impersonal sentences, they do have a subject.
    This se is a pronoun, a special form of the third singular person pronoun that is used instead of le or les in pronominal constructions with third person subjects. We don't say xA Pablo le le ocurrió una idea, but ...se le ocurrió una idea. Like in all pronominal sentences, this pronoun agrees with the subject, which in both Se me ocurre a mí viajar a España and De repente, a Pablo se le ocurrió una idea is third singular person, hence se.
    I suggest that you study about pronominal verbs and verbs used in pronominal structures.

    ...
    3. What is the name of this structure? “Pasiva refleja”?...
    No, pasivas reflejas, like any passive sentence, can only be built around a transitive verb, a verb that can have a direct object, which ocurrir is not. As stated before, they are pronominal constructions. That pronoun se agrees with the subjects viajar a España and una idea, which are third singular person.
     
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    elprofe

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain)
    "A continuación se les ofrece el resumen de otra novela suya" is NOT an impersonal sentence as far as syntax is concerned, so it's not what we call "oración impersonal". This construction is called "pasiva refleja"...

    Impersonal: Se vive bien en España / No se necesita ser muy listo para darse cuenta de eso / Se sabe que hay unas ruinas romanas en la zona

    Pasiva refleja: Se necesitan extras para la película / Las elecciones se celebrarán en Junio / El resumen se les ofrecerá al día siguiente
     
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    Peterdg

    Senior Member
    Dutch - Belgium
    "A continuación se les ofrece el resumen de otra novela suya" is NOT an impersonal sentence as far as syntax is concerned, so it's not what we call "oración impersonal". This construction is called "pasiva refleja"...
    I agree.

    It would be obvious if it said "los resúmenes" instead of "el resumen"; then the verb would go in plural ("ofrecen"), which is not possible with impersonal constructions with "se".
     

    Aviador

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Chile
    "A continuación se les ofrece el resumen de otra novela suya" is NOT an impersonal sentence as far as syntax is concerned, so it's not what we call "oración impersonal". This construction is called "pasiva refleja"...

    Impersonal: Se vive bien en España / No se necesita ser muy listo para darse cuenta de eso / Se sabe que hay unas ruinas romanas en la zona

    Pasiva refleja: Se necesitan extras para la película / Las elecciones se celebrarán en Junio / El resumen se les ofrecerá al día siguiente
    It is true. Both an impersonal with se and a pasiva refleja with singular passive subject are identical, but since the direct object in this particular impersonal sentence is a common noun and not a determined person, the pasiva refleja is preferred.
     

    Doraemon-

    Senior Member
    "Spanish - Spain" "Catalan - Valencia"
    Las dos encajarían perfectamente, sin que vea ninguna preferencia clara por considerarla pasiva refleja o impersonal. En plural, donde sí se ve la diferencia, me parecerían bien ambas:
    A continuación se les ofrecen los resúmenes de otra novela suya.
    A continuación se les ofrece los resúmenes de otra novela suya.

    Yo soy más de usar impersonales en estos casos (me parecen de una estructura gramática mucho más clara), pero vaya, las dos son perfectamente válidas.
     
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