Shem HaMeforash - שם המפורש

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atarotsmith

New Member
English
Hello there.

So there are different versions of the “explicit name” or the list of the “72 angels bearing the name of god, floating about the internet. The most popular comes from a book entitled “The Magus” from 1801. These versions are pretty much all wrong. Mistakes in Hebrew AND in the transliterations are made.

I think there are a lot of open questions about how one can transliterate these names, so I’ve come to you for guidance. I’ve attached the page from that book I spoke of which is most readily found when one searches for these things, also in two of my books despite being extremely incorrect, and my corrected version. I think I’ve checked all the Hebrew a few times but I planned on revisiting the transliteration. There’s at least two errors in the transliteration and maybe in the Hebrew.

I’ve also attached the names just with their three letters absent the אל- and יה- suffixes.

There are so many periods of Hebrew and I can’t be certain of when the Shem HaMeforash originated, so I can’t exactly rely on a period of Hebrew. I make distinctions for ח ע and ק but stubbornly insist ת is always /t/. ו should be all rights w/o/u U, I believe, but I’m mostly treating it as v/o/u.

I’m really just looking for anything this conversation sparks to help me be clearer on what exactly I’m trying to convey in the transliteration. I’m looking for any notes, observations, suggestions, opinions, musings, or whatever.

הודה ושלום עליכם
 

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  • Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    These names come from combining 3 letters 72 different ways from a particular Biblical verse. Thus, these aren't real names, but rather basically random combinations of letters. As such, they don't really have a real pronunciation, and thus no real transliteration, unless they happen to coincide with a real word, and the pronunciation can be based on that word.
     

    atarotsmith

    New Member
    English
    These names come from combining 3 letters 72 different ways from a particular Biblical verse. Thus, these aren't real names, but rather basically random combinations of letters. As such, they don't really have a real pronunciation, and thus no real transliteration, unless they happen to coincide with a real word, and the pronunciation can be based on that word.

    I recognize that. I’m asking people who see this that understand more about the rules governing Hebrew vowels and behaviors of specific letters in specific positions, presupposing there is some “correct way” to pronounce them, help me by speculating.

    I’m well aware that this can’t truly be pronounced, I concede that there’s no established consensus among any kind of linguistic community on such a thing and therefore this question is kind of up for grabs.

    I’m only trying to provide what is objectively a more correct way to transliterate the names in some respects and to use whatever a “reasonable” approach might be. I’m hoping that people more learned than I am might have some kind of opinion or input on this.

    I realize this isn’t wholly a linguistic connection, but when I look at a name transliterated _____ when it LOOKS like, if it were a word, it might be pronounced ____, I kind of have nowhere to go but my biases.

    I’m presupposing there is a correct way to pronounce these names and just trying to find insight and inspiration or history where I can from many who would be like well inclined to offer it.

    I recognize this isn’t strictly speaking a linguistic inquiry or a problem or a consideration, but I’m just trying to make corrections to genuine errors where I see them and want to give ample thought to what I put out there intending to replace it.

    cheers
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    What I'm saying is that what you're asking for does not exist. There simply is no "objectively more correct" pronunciation.
     

    Abaye

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    I don't think it has anything to do with Hebrew as a language or with linguistics. The "name of 72" exists in Cabbalistic context, presumably since ancient times, but not as pronounceable words or letter combinations that have lingual meaning. I'm sure you can find numerous attempts of attaching to it graspable meaning, but I don't think any of them is widely agreed by scholars or by people of religion. In the context of Cabbala, a letter combination may be powerful, or have transcendental value, or make miracles, regardless of having meaning in the language level.

    And there's of course also the name of 42 letters.
     

    Haskol

    Member
    Hebrew, English - US/Canada
    Tl;dr but I recall seeing in the past a version of שם ע"ב with nikkud. The nikkud is possibly simply the original nikkud that the letters have in the verses, but I'm not entirely sure. If I find it again, I'll post a pic here. But again, just because it has nikkud doesn't mean that it's supposed to be pronounced. These are mystical practices, they don't necessarily follow any sort of logic.
     

    atarotsmith

    New Member
    English
    These names come from combining 3 letters 72 different ways from a particular Biblical verse. Thus, these aren't real names, but rather basically random combinations of letters. As such, they don't really have a real pronunciation, and thus no real transliteration, unless they happen to coincide with a real word, and the pronunciation can be based on that word.
    Tl;dr but I recall seeing in the past a version of שם ע"ב with nikkud. The nikkud is possibly simply the original nikkud that the letters have in the verses, but I'm not entirely sure. If I find it again, I'll post a pic here. But again, just because it has nikkud doesn't mean that it's supposed to be pronounced. These are mystical practices, they don't necessarily follow any sort of logic.
     

    atarotsmith

    New Member
    English
    Tl;dr but I recall seeing in the past a version of שם ע"ב with nikkud. The nikkud is possibly simply the original nikkud that the letters have in the verses, but I'm not entirely sure. If I find it again, I'll post a pic here. But again, just because it has nikkud doesn't mean that it's supposed to be pronounced. These are mystical practices, they don't necessarily follow any sort of logic.
    Right. I mean if you find this please do pass it along, but because of precisely what Drink pointed out, I wouldn’t be able to treat this document as anything other than theoretical, no different than what I’m doing. They didn’t arise out of shorashim but I’m trying to present and/or treat them as shorashim all the same. The idea is *if* these were indeed proper words or names, how might one, given the rules, logic, and rhythm of Hebrew, likely go about pronunciation?

    I completely concede there isn’t a hard answer here I can reach for. I just appreciate ANY comment really.

    Thank you both a ton.
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    It's like asking if English had a word with three random consonants (say, k-f-b), what vowels would this word have?

    There is literally no way to "guess" the vowels of a hypothetical nonexistent word.
     

    atarotsmith

    New Member
    English
    It's like asking if English had a word with three random consonants (say, k-f-b), what vowels would this word have?

    There is literally no way to "guess" the vowels of a hypothetical nonexistent word.
    You can keep on pointing that out and I’m going to keep on pointing out I’m not really looking for any hard grammar based answers to a question which is outside of grammar’s purview and that I am only looking for any perspective from Hebrew speakers or linguists who study Hebrew grammar at all that comes my way. I’m sorry this isn’t *really* a question about the language, but it involves elements of Hebrew and I’ve been on this message board for a while, I trust the community, so I’m just looking for any insight whatsoever. I get the letter combinations are meant to be contemplated in a fashion that’s not dissimilar to how one contemplates the paths on the tree. I know I’m not dealing in rights or wrongs here and I’m aware this is less a linguistic question and more of an esoteric one, but the sad truth is that for anyone who wants to explore ANY depths linguistically online, well, let’s just say the qabbalah groups and forums tend to be somewhat lacking in individuals who are educated in Hebrew at all.

    I have questions about how these pronunciations originated at all. In 1801’s “The Magus” by Francis Barrett we have the page I’ve shown you, and that is probably the most widely circulated chart of the explicit name.

    I know the combinations come from each name’s respective verse from Psalms. I wonder if perhaps the vowel patterns may have something to do with that. The fact is I don’t know and don’t have much recourse in the way of checking sources on this sort of thing beyond the esoteric texts in which they appear. All that’s left is speculation and while understanding because these are not shorashim there are no actual governing rules to inform pronunciation if there is not in fact any value in examining HOW might one pronounce these names if one were to find value in that.

    Again, I refer to the mainstream idea concerning how these names ought to be pronounced (for whatever arbitrary reasons) and ask myself how did this person (whoever that is) arrive to these conclusions, why did they arrive there, while I look over the page and see names misspelled or transliterated WHOLLY incorrectly (treating a י as a ל in one case, plenty of other cases where the letter listed is either a misprint or the transliteration includes letters that don’t at all match up with the Hebrew letters they’re meant to stand in for) as opposed to spelling “Vehuyah” VHV + YH or something which would be an objectively more correct way to transliterate this.

    Again I kind of want to apologize because I realize that this isn’t exactly a question that can be answered. I’m just coming to people that might be more knowledgeable than I. When I see these names using letters that ought not be there and have the impulse to put out a “corrected” version because of it while realizing, despite the fact these aren’t words that can obey rules to give us a “correct pronunciation, that no matter how I transliterate a name it could be considered wrong due to the different periods of Hebrew and how some consonants and vowels were (or were not) pronounced, what am I to do?

    I’m just looking for anything anyone has to say. I’ve already very much gotten that and just hope to receive more.
     
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    atarotsmith

    New Member
    English
    It’s kind of like dealing in the proper name of hashem. We can only speculate if the ineffable name CAN truly be pronounced (we say it was whispered on Yom Kippur so we presumably pronounced it a certain way for a time) and if that pronunciation is likely (I don’t mean to offend anyone) Yahweh, Yahveh, Yehuwah, Yehuvah, Yehowah, Yehovah, or Yihawueh or something else that’s a possible vowel combination.

    My apologies for typing hashem that way, I’m just trying to illustrate my point. I know there are x amount of permutations of YHWH/YHVH, I know what the popular pronunciation is, but how did we get here and is this kind of conversation concerning names that lack vowels even worth having?

    I, obviously, believe it’s a conversation worth having.
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Your analogy is not quite right. The tetragrammaton was once a real word that had a real pronunciation (though I have seen one opinion that it never had a pronunciation), so therefore it makes sense to speculate and reconstruct with evidence how it was pronounced.

    These names never had a pronunciation, which also means there can't possibly be any evidence that gives us any clues.

    Furthermore, since they never were real words, many of them even break Hebrew phonotactics (i.e. have letter combinations that simply don't exist naturally in Hebrew, and so can't possibly have reasonable pronunciations).
     

    amikama

    a mi modo
    עברית
    Hello atarotsmith,

    These 3-letter combinations are meaningless and don't have a pronunciation, therefore they aren't real Hebrew words.

    The purpose of this forum is to discuss the Hebrew language and its vocabulary, grammar, and so on. As these combinations aren't part of the Hebrew vocabulary, your thread was outside the scope of the forum, and thus, unfortunately, had to be closed.

    Thanks,

    amikama

    Hebrew forum moderator
     
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