Shoganai and dasai

[Cereth]

Hello!!

I know how Shoganai and dasai can be translated into Spanish (ni modo/naco?) but how do you translate these words into english -I don´t want to translate from Japanese into Spanish and then translate into English-, how do you Japanese and English natives translate those words?.

Thanks in advance from "Kumori" Guadalajara City.....

 

[Flaminius]

I solicit correction from kind fellow posters who speak Spanish but I am under the impression that Cereth thinks shoganai and dasai are synonymous. They are not.

Dasai is tacky, dweeby or countrified, i.e., the opposit of cool, hip, groovy or chilled. Very simple.

Yet, shoganai needs more detailed explanation. Ellipted from "shiyoo-ga nai" (sorry guys, I cannot wield my favourite macron in this PC), it literally means "there is no way." But no way to do what? This question leads to the many usages of the expression.

Shoganai is "I cannot help it," when used to describe an irresistible urge one is feeling.
チョコレートが食べたくてしょうがない。
chokoreeto-ga tabetakute shooganai.
I am craving to eat chocolate.

It can mean, "There is no use in doing something."
いまから書いてもしょうがない。締め切りは昨日だった。
ima-kara kaitemo shooganai. shimekiri-wa kinoo datta.
There is no use in [start to] writing from now. The deadline was yesterday.

Another meaning is incorrigible or impossible after the sense of "no way to mend."
あの人はしょうがない。
anohito-wa shooganai.
He is impossible.
[note: on a second thought, this use of shooganai as expressing something is disagreeable is not far from dasai.]

What seems to be derived from this sense is, "really."
夏は蚊がうるさくてしょうがない。
natsu-wa ka-ga urusakute shooganai.
In summer mosquitos are really annoying.

Finally, if uttered by itself, shooganai is an expression of resignation, "I cannot complain."

 

[Aoyama]

I'd be presumptuous to dare ad anything after Flam 's extensive and close to definitive explaination. Nevertheless, in very short :
shoganai= it can't be helped/nothing to be done about it (with all derived possibilities)
dasai = bland, tasteless, uninteresting (rightly the opposite of "cool")
Flam might explain, later, the origin of DA which can be found in dame, dagashi etc. With the meaning of futile, cheap ...

 

[Flaminius]

Alas, I am going to disappoint Ao's insatiable inquiry at etymology, but there seems to be no definitive arguments concerning the origin of dasai. I shall not reproduce this lengthy opinion because, after exploring all the possible opinions I have ever heard on this, it concludes, "The etymology is unknown."

 

[Aoyama]

Well, this insatiable quest for etymology won't be fed today. I'll take a look at the opinion listed. Thank you.

 

[Cereth]

Well I do not know why you thought I thought "shoganai" and "dasai" were the same???
I never said that!!
in Spanish Shoganai means: Ni modo, which is something like "it can be helped"
and Dasai means: Naco or "tacky"

but I just wanted to be sure "tacky" was the same than "dasai" because spanish word "naco" is sometimes difficult to translate. I speak fluently Spanish and English and right now I´m learning Japanese, I just did not want to make a translation from Japanese into Spanish and then into English because I thought that those words could change a little bit, but I´m happy to know that my original idea was right...
I think I was clear the first time....

 

[Flaminius]

Stop wondering, Cereth.... As I understand no Spanish, your "ni modo/naco" appeared to me saying *Both mean either ni modo or naco. Sorry for the confusion. Flam

 

[gaer]

Dasai is tacky, dweeby or countrified, i.e., the opposit of cool, hip, groovy or chilled. Very simple.

"Countrified" is defined as "lacking sophistication". So here "unsophisticated" might be a good word. Instead of "dweeby", which is really an ususual word, I would recommend "lame". I may think of better words. "Hip" is still used, but "groovy" is itself "lame" now. It hit its peak in the 1960s and 70s.

Another meaning is incorrigible or impossible after the sense of "no way to mend."
あの人はしょうがない。
anohito-wa shooganai.
He is impossible.
[note: on a second thought, this use of shooganai as expressing something is disagreeable is not far from dasai.]

But is ださい really "disagreeable"?

Let's say that you say someone is "not cool", 'lame", "a nerd", etc. There is a possible overlapping.

"He is impossible" could possibly mean:

"We can't do anything about him, he is such a nerd, he is so lame." (and so on)

But that's really stretching the meaning of "disagreeable".

I have a question: would it be more correct to write shôganai, or does it make no difference in romaji?

Gaer

 

[Aoyama]

I checked dasai and (I should have guessed it), together with the fact that the origin is not clear, I found out that it is dasa.i , not da sai as I had first thought, linking the word to da saku, da jare, da me etc.
Dasa.kunai could then be possible (like okashi.kunai).
I still think however that somewhere, the attraction of da exists ...

 

[Aoyama]

anohito-wa shooganai.
He is impossible.

Or also :anohito-wa shooganai : he is a helpless case/Nothing can be done to change his ways

 

[gaer]

Or also :anohito-wa shooganai : he is a helpless case/Nothing can be done to change his ways

We also say, informally:

"You can't do anything with him." (He is impossible to change, to reason with, etc.)

 

[Hiro Sasaki]

"dasai " means "not elegant " and " not smart". It came into much use
in the 70's. The origin of many words wriiten usually in Katakana or
Hiragana can not be recognized nor can be proved, except for the words
of foreign origins. ( He is "shoganai otoko " ) is not the same as
( He is dasai otoko ). When a mother says to her child "Shooganai ko ne",
it is not a strong scolding, although I don't knoe whether I can call it
an affectionate. A wife may say to her husbund " Shooganai hito ne".
It depends, but she can say so with a smile.


Hiro Sasaki

 

[Aoyama]

That is very true . With this, we enter the world of amaé . But this may be another story ...