shukriyah

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urdustan

Member
Urdu & English
Hello,

How did the Arabic shukran evolve into shukriyah in Urdu? I don't think either word is used in Persian.
 
  • Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    That's weird. A non-Turkish word being used in a Turkish form in Persian. müteşekkürüm. M : I am
    It is not a Turkish form. The final am is genuinely Persian, as a first person singular form of verb declension suffix and "to be".
     

    asanga

    Member
    Indonesian
    Do they come from Arabic?
    motashakker-am looks like the active participle of the Arabic form V verb (تَفَعَّلَ) with the Persian 1st person singular of the verb "to be": "I am thankful"; tashakkor is the masdar (verbal noun) of the same verb form. Form V of a verb is usually reflexive and intransitive, so while form I of the verb shakara means "to thank", form V tashakkara means "to be thankful".

    Back to shukriyah, it looks a lot like a feminine nisba shukriyyah of the form I masdar شُكْرٌ . Maybe this was used in accordance with the rule that non-human plurals get feminine singular adjectives? I.e. shukriyyah is short for "[words, tokens, expressions etc.] of thanks". I believe izafe constructions with a plural first member and singular feminine adj. are quite common in Persian: e.g. قرون ماضیه , گناهان کبیرہ. Maybe shukriyah was originally part of an Indo-Persian phrase of this type? Is it ever pronounced with tashdeed?

    In Indonesian, we use the masdar شُكْرٌ (pronounced with an extra vowel because Indonesian doesn't allow consonant clusters like -kr-) with a native prefix: bersyukur. This can be interpreted as a reflexive verb "to be thankful" or an adjective "having thanks".
     
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    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    šukran is the accusative of šukr “thanks”; mutakkir is a participle “thanking”; šukriyya is the feminine singular of the adjective šukrī “thankful”, but it can be used also as an abstract noun “thankfulness”. All these words are Arabic, but only the first is used to mean “thank you” in Arabic.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Your post should answer the inquiry posed by OP. I often wondered about shukriyah. Your reply makes it crystal clear. Thank you.
     

    asanga

    Member
    Indonesian
    I thought that the تاء مربوطة of a feminine nisba used as an abstract noun becomes -t in Udru, e.g. علمیت، انسانیت etc. So shouldn't we expect شکریت if it means "thankfulness"?

    Slightly off-topic: in Hindi this abstract noun suffix is pronounced and spelled with a single y, इंसानियत, and I've heard this in Urdu as well (the spelling is of course ambiguous without diacritics). Is this the standard pronunciation in Urdu, or do high registers double the y, -iyyat?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I thought that the تاء مربوطة of a feminine nisba used as an abstract noun becomes -t in Udru, e.g. علمیت، انسانیت etc. So shouldn't we expect شکریت if it means "thankfulness"?

    Slightly off-topic: in Hindi this abstract noun suffix is pronounced and spelled with a single y, इंसानियत, and I've heard this in Urdu as well (the spelling is of course ambiguous without diacritics). Is this the standard pronunciation in Urdu, or do high registers double the y, -iyyat?
    First point: Some if not most nouns are with -t, as in muHabbat/maHabbat but there are instances of the noun remaining with -ah ending, e.g iraadat/iraadah

    Second point: Yes, careful speakers do double the -y.
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    [...] Back to shukriyah, it looks a lot like a feminine nisba shukriyyah of the form I masdar شُكْرٌ . Maybe this was used in accordance with the rule that non-human plurals get feminine singular adjectives? I.e. shukriyyah is short for "[words, tokens, expressions etc.] of thanks". I believe izafe constructions with a plural first member and singular feminine adj. are quite common in Persian: e.g. قرون ماضیه , گناهان کبیرہ. Maybe shukriyah was originally part of an Indo-Persian phrase of this type? [...]
    šukran is the accusative of šukr “thanks”; mutakkir is a participle “thanking”; šukriyya is the feminine singular of the adjective šukrī “thankful”, but it can be used also as an abstract noun “thankfulness”. All these words are Arabic, but only the first is used to mean “thank you” in Arabic.
    Great explanations and suggestions with which I can wholeheartedly agree. There is a phrase آدابِ شکریّہ aadaab-e-shukriyyah which I believe gave origin to the stand-alone word shukriyyah.
     

    urdustan

    Member
    Urdu & English
    Is shukriyyah "thankfulness" used at all in Persian? For example, is the Urdu phrase aadaab-e-shukriyyah also used in Persian? If not, then this is an example of a word that was adopted directly from Arabic to Urdu without Persian as an intermediary.

    Thanks.
     
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    urdustan

    Member
    Urdu & English
    I now see that shukriyya/shukriya is not listed in Steingass' comprehensive Indo-Persian dictionary, which points to an Urdu borrowing of the word directly from Arabic.
     

    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    I think the suffix -ya has been added in Urdu/Hindi and doesn't relate to neither Arabic, nor Persian. The word shukr is used for "thanks" in Persian too, especially when it is used with the word sepas. (شکر و سپاس)
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    It is a completely regular Arabic derivation pattern for abstract nouns. Even with only minimal knowledge of Arabic (like me) one would intuitively understand its meaning without a moment's hesitation. See #8.
     

    CyrusSH

    Banned
    Persian - Iran
    It doesn't matter Arabic شكرية‏ has a similar meaning or not (that I think not), the important point is that it has double "y" and the last letter is "t", for example about Arabic أهمية (importance) in Persian/Urdu there is "ahammiyyat", not "ahammiya".
     
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