Hi everybody.
I hope this is the right forum to post about what I noticed in my last trip to Sardinia.
I was walking around Fonni, a small town in the province of Nuoro.
I asked three guys something, and after they answered me, they said something in "sardinian"(?). The fact is that the language they were speaking was soooooo similar to romanian. And I say it's not romanian just because I was in Sardinia.
I heard other people talking and they all sound the same.
Words are the same!
I could hear "este" "sunt" and other romanian words.
I knew Romance languages could be similar but what I heard was romanian to me. I looked on the web if Fonni has any Romanian influences but I didn't find anything.
If they were speaking sardinian...
I truly believe that if a sardinian speak to a romanian they would understand each other.
Sardinian and Romanian share some sound changes that are absent, or at least non-standard, in the other Romance languages.
For example, "l" has partly shifted to "r" when next to another consonant: Romanian vreau "I want" (< volo), Sardinian abru "white" (< albu-). Also, the labiovelar sounds "qu" and "gu" have become "p"/"b": Sardinian abba "water" (< aqua), limba "language/ tongue" (< lingua), Romanian apă "water", limbă "tongue"/"language".
Neither of these changes is especially rare, cross-linguistically, so these are probably parallel developments in Sardinian and Romanian rather than evidence of an especially close relation between the two languages. Also, these changes are dialectally specific even within Sardinian (they seem to be more characteristic of the Logudorese dialect than of Campidanese).
@Braso95,
Romanian sunt is recent, due to an orthographic reform made by Romanian Academy in 1993 (old Romanian form was sânt [sɨnt]). I pronounce and hear sânt on the street, I hear sunt at TV or in official speeches.
@Nino83,
You try to deduce Romanian words by phonetic rules, but some of the words you reconstructed have disappeared from Romanian.
Romanian does not have mur (he have mural, as neologism) - we use the word perete (variant: părete < lat. accusative parietem).
Romanian has lost the Latin centum and has replaced it by Old Slavic suto (rom. sută).
Romanian and its Balkanic dialects have the rhotacism of intervocalic single /L/, a distinctive rule that is not encountered in the Romance languages that I know (it may be present in some Italian dialects, I forgot which ones... if I read somewhere such thing).
E.g. lat. melus > rom. măr (compare with it. mela); lat. accusative solem > rom. soare (cf. it. sole)
Romanian a vrea comes from a reconstructed VL *volere (cf. it. volere) with the reconstructed evolution:
VL *volere > vorere (rhotacism of intervocalic /L/) > vrere (a vrea)
N.B. Romanian infinitive has lost the -re termination, probably under the influence of a similar phenomenon in South Slavic languages (e.g. pisatj ("to write) - pisa) - I don't insist on this unless somebody asks.
Romanian indeed has palatalized the Latin /ce, ci/, as you said. E.g. lat. cera [kera] > rom. ceară [ʧearə].
Romanian phonology has the biggest influence coming from South Slavic languages (many situations of diphthongation of Latin monophtongs).
I read about the conservatism of Sardinian (only 8% deviation from Latin, according to Mario Pei's study). I don't know this language to give my opinion as Romanian native speaker, but I will search some audio files in Sardinian and give an opinion, after listening.
Search "Nanneddu meu - Testo e Traduzione" on Youtube.
Here it is the text:
Nanneddu meu, su mundu er gai:
a sicut erat non torrat mai.
Semus in tempus de tirannia
infamidade e carestia.
Como sos populos cascan che cane
gridende forte: "Cherimos pane".
Famidos nois semos pappande
pane e castanza, terra cun lande.
Terra ch'a fangu torrat su poveru
senz'alimentu, senza ricoveru.
Semos sididos in sas funtanas
pretende s'abba parimos ranas.
Peus sa famene chi forte sonat
sa janna a tottus e non perdonat.
Avocadeddos laureados
busciacca boida, ispiantados.
In sas campagnas pappana mura
che capras lanzas in sa cresura.
Cand'est famida s'avvocazia
cheret chi penset in beccaria.
Mancu pro sognu su quisitu
es de cumbincher tantu appetitu.
Sos tristos corvos a chie los lassas
pienos de tirrias e malas trassas.
Canaglia infame piena de braga
cheret s'iscetru, cheret sa daga.
Ma no bi torran a sos antigos
tempos d'infamia e de intrigos.
Pretan a Roma, mannu est s'ostaculu:
ferru est s'ispada, linna est su bacculu.
S'intulzu apostulu de su segnore
si finghet santu, ite impostore.
Sos corvos suos tristos molestos
sun sa discordia de sos onestos.
Maccos famidos, ladros, baccanu
faghimos: nemos alzet sa manu.
Adiosu Nanne: tenedi contu,
faghe su surdu, bettadi a tontu.
Ca tantu, l'ides, su mundu er gai:
a sicut erat no torrat mai.
Testo in italiano:
Nannedu mio, così va il mondo: com'era non torna più: Viviamo tempi di carestia, di disgrazia e tirannia. Da cani ora cade la gente, gridando forte "Vogliamo pane". E noi affamati stiamo mangiando pane e castagne, terra con ghiande.
Il poveraccio è malridotto, privo di cibo e senza tetto. Siamo assetati e, alle fontane, bramando acqua sembriamo rane. Peggio, la fame bussa con forza ad ogni porta e non perdona. Avvocatini, si, laureati, ma tasche vuote, ultraspiantati.
Nelle campagne mangiano more, come le capre in mezzo ai cespugli. Quando hanno fame, gli Avvocatini,meglio che pensino a trovar cibo. Manco per sogno, il loro problema è alleviare tanto appetito. E a chi li lasci i corvi tristi, pieni di vizi e brutti vizi!
canaglia infame, piena di orgoglio, vuole lo scettro ed il comando, ma non ce la fa a ritornare ai tristi intrighi dei vecchi tempi. Brigano a Roma, grande è l'ostacolo: ferro è la spada, legno è il bastone. Lo stolto apostolo del Signore si finge santo, bell'impostore!
I corvi suoi, tristi e molesti, sono la discordia degli onesti. Matti, affamati, facciam baccano: e che nessuno alzi la mano. Ciao Nanni, e datti conto: fai sempre il sordo, fai sempre il tonto. tanto, lo vedi, così va il mondo: e come era non torna più.
Compared with other romance languages Sardinian and Romanian were least affected by the enormous import of new learned vocabulary directly from classical Latin and Greek which came after the renaissance. Both were comparative backwaters. Romanian did not have any Latin influence from the Catholic church. The wonder to me is not that it has diverged so much, but that it has diverged so little given the almost total lack of contact with the West until the 19th century.
@Nino83,
I agree with you - very conservative language this Sardinian.
I find it closer to standard Italian than Romanian.
In phonology I have not remarked many diphthongs (some -ia- diphthongs, while Romanian has many words with -ia- or -ea- or -oa- diphthongs.
In matter of vowels Sardinian seems to preserved all Latin vowels and did not add anything (my first impression, but I have not read about it),
while Romanian has added ǎ [ə] (also present in French and Portuguese) and â/î [ɨ] (a sound more closed than [ə], not present in other Romance languages, as far as I know).
Romanian has also a vowel which I could hardly find in other Romance languages:
a short i at the end of the words as a mark of plural (influence from Slavic short i at the end of the infinitive form of many verbs).
Many foreigners learning Romanian have difficulties in pronouncing Romanian words like București [bu-cu-'reshti] - I hear them saying [bu-cu-resh-'ti].
Compare it. uomini ['wo-mi-ni] with rom. oameni ['wa-meni]
In matter of Sardinian vocabulary I remarked a very large percent of words inherited from Latin or imported (learnt) from Latin as neologisms (I did not spent time to distinguish them, but words like obstaculo, avvocados, laureados seem to be recent neologisms).
Romanian vocabulary was heavily influenced by Slavic neighboring languages (biggest influence after the inherited Latin vocabulary). Written Romanian (that one my find on web pages, for example) contains a great number of neologisms from French, Italian or Latin imported after the 18th century - it may mislead foreigners in some assessments.
Spoken Romanian (on the street) use more 'simple' words, i.e. not so many neologisms and re-Latinized words as in writing.
Conclusion:
- I find Sardinian and Italian as closest languages to Romanian and it is not obvious to me which one of them is the closest.
- I find Sardinian and Italian closer to each other than to Romanian
Romanian sounds more like Catalan or Southern European Portuguese when spoken fast.
Masculine words of the Latin second declension (except those ending with a cluster muta cum liquida) end in consonant, feminine words of the Latin first declension end with [ə], i.e [fet fei̯t fapt] and [kasə kazə kasə] (in Italian and Sardinian [fatto fattu] and [kaza kasa]).
In European Portuguese unstressed /a/ is [ə] and unstressed /e/ is [ɨ ̴ ɯ̽].
Phonologically speaking Italian and Sardinian are on the conservative side while Romanian is on the innovative side (vowel reduction, second palatalization and so on).
On vowels, Sardianian retained the original Latin 5 vowels without any difference in length while Romanian has ě > jɛ and ē/ǐ > e.
Search "Nanneddu meu - Testo e Traduzione" on Youtube.
Here it is the text:
Nanneddu meu, su mundu er gai:
a sicut erat non torrat mai.
Semus in tempus de tirannia
infamidade e carestia.
Como sos populos cascan che cane
gridende forte: "Cherimos pane".
Famidos nois semos pappande
pane e castanza, terra cun lande.
Terra ch'a fangu torrat su poveru
senz'alimentu, senza ricoveru.
Semos sididos in sas funtanas
pretende s'abba parimos ranas.
Peus sa famene chi forte sonat
sa janna a tottus e non perdonat.
Avocadeddos laureados
busciacca boida, ispiantados.
In sas campagnas pappana mura
che capras lanzas in sa cresura.
Cand'est famida s'avvocazia
cheret chi penset in beccaria.
Mancu pro sognu su quisitu
es de cumbincher tantu appetitu.
Sos tristos corvos a chie los lassas
pienos de tirrias e malas trassas.
Canaglia infame piena de braga
cheret s'iscetru, cheret sa daga.
Ma no bi torran a sos antigos
tempos d'infamia e de intrigos.
Pretan a Roma, mannu est s'ostaculu:
ferru est s'ispada, linna est su bacculu.
S'intulzu apostulu de su segnore
si finghet santu, ite impostore.
Sos corvos suos tristos molestos
sun sa discordia de sos onestos.
Maccos famidos, ladros, baccanu
faghimos: nemos alzet sa manu.
Adiosu Nanne: tenedi contu,
faghe su surdu, bettadi a tontu.
Ca tantu, l'ides, su mundu er gai:
a sicut erat no torrat mai.
Testo in italiano:
Nannedu mio, così va il mondo: com'era non torna più: Viviamo tempi di carestia, di disgrazia e tirannia. Da cani ora cade la gente, gridando forte "Vogliamo pane". E noi affamati stiamo mangiando pane e castagne, terra con ghiande.
Il poveraccio è malridotto, privo di cibo e senza tetto. Siamo assetati e, alle fontane, bramando acqua sembriamo rane. Peggio, la fame bussa con forza ad ogni porta e non perdona. Avvocatini, si, laureati, ma tasche vuote, ultraspiantati.
Nelle campagne mangiano more, come le capre in mezzo ai cespugli. Quando hanno fame, gli Avvocatini,meglio che pensino a trovar cibo. Manco per sogno, il loro problema è alleviare tanto appetito. E a chi li lasci i corvi tristi, pieni di vizi e brutti vizi!
canaglia infame, piena di orgoglio, vuole lo scettro ed il comando, ma non ce la fa a ritornare ai tristi intrighi dei vecchi tempi. Brigano a Roma, grande è l'ostacolo: ferro è la spada, legno è il bastone. Lo stolto apostolo del Signore si finge santo, bell'impostore!
I corvi suoi, tristi e molesti, sono la discordia degli onesti. Matti, affamati, facciam baccano: e che nessuno alzi la mano. Ciao Nanni, e datti conto: fai sempre il sordo, fai sempre il tonto. tanto, lo vedi, così va il mondo: e come era non torna più.
I agree, and also Sardinian and Spanish to each other (sometimes closer than Italian and Sardian). See e.g. the following fragments of two Sardinian religious songs:
(Ninnia a Gesús)
... sas pipías divinas
derraman perlas finas ...
... e a totu s’horizonte
es de hermosura ...
(Ave Mama de Deu)
... de chelos sovrana
de grascias funtana ...
... Gesús has ninnadu
carignos l’has dadu
prenda de amare ...
I think it's worth to notice (independently on the comparison with the Romanian) that the Sardinian is not a "monolithic" (or homogeneous) language, it's variants/dialects (Logudorese, Campidanese, Nuorese ...) differ significantly from each other (especially in phonetics). Thus in some cases it surprisingly reminds the classical Latin, on the other hand it presents many innovations even comparing with other Romance languages.
in the song Nannedu meu I read: a sicut erat non torrat mai
On the Wiki page for Sardinian language there is an example of conservatism from Classical Latin:
Non si podet pipare
I remark here the final t in the conjugation for the 3rd person has been preserved in Sardinian, but has been lost in most (all?) other Romance languages.
(sard. erat = rom. era = it. era = pg. era ...)
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I read somewhere about a "wave theory" in the evolution of languages:
- sometimes an innovation happens in a region and is propagated from the center to the entire space speaking that language. The innovation may reach the "borders" after centuries. In the mean time the rest of the speakers in the center (after some generations maybe) reject the innovation and that innovation disappears from the center, but may survive at the extremities.
Probably the similarities between Sardinian and Romanian (cited above) which are not encountered in other Romance languages
have been propagated by "waves of innovations" which have been rejected by speakers in other regions, after some generations.
P.S.
I remembered the Sardinian song Pitzinnos in sa gherra that I heard on some edition of San Remo festival.
P.P.S.
Is the Corsican dialect an endangered language?
I know France have a unifying linguistic policy since Napoleon's time ("Soyez propres Parlez français")
P.P.S.
Is the Corsican dialect an endangered language?
I know France have a unifying linguistic policy since Napoleon's time ("Soyez propres Parlez français")
Sardinian and Romanian share some sound changes that are absent, or at least non-standard, in the other Romance languages.
For example, "l" has partly shifted to "r" when next to another consonant: Romanian vreau "I want" (< volo), Sardinian abru "white" (< albu-). Also, the labiovelar sounds "qu" and "gu" have become "p"/"b": Sardinian abba "water" (< aqua), limba "language/ tongue" (< lingua), Romanian apă "water", limbă "tongue"/"language".
Neither of these changes is especially rare, cross-linguistically, so these are probably parallel developments in Sardinian and Romanian rather than evidence of an especially close relation between the two languages. Also, these changes are dialectally specific even within Sardinian (they seem to be more characteristic of the Logudorese dialect than of Campidanese).
This is not the only explanation and is not obvious that is the best one.
Vulgar Latin was spoken in the entire Roman Empire, in a dialectum continuum, from Iberian Peninsula to Balkan Peninsula.
Some facts that helped a unified Vulgar Latin language:
- the Roman legions were recruited from a region and deployed in another corner of the empire for a military service of usually 25 years.
- after the conquest of a new region, the Roman colonists (private people, not state administration) came to take advantage of new business opportunities (commerce, banking etc.).
- slavery was also a source of internal migration in Roman Empire.
All these aspects and probably many others are elements that favored the spread of Latin language (Vulgar Latin) in all corners, but also kept the language in a relatively unified state (of course, local dialects may have emerged, but they were in competition with Latin speakers moving all over and their movement was a mean of unifying the dialects).
But this relatively unified Vulgar Latin spoken in the Roman Empire has diverged in many Romance languages after the Western Roman Empire has fallen (476 AD) and after the migration of peoples have changed the ethnic map of Europe in the Middle Ages.
Thus the similarities (relatively small in number) between Sardinian and Romanian may be explained by an initial migration of colonists from Italian Peninsula + its islands to Balkan Peninsula, but there are a lot of historical factors against a dialectum continuum from Sardinia to Romania after the fall of the empire: Slavic migration in Balkans after 8th century, Ottoman Empire advance in Balkans after 14th century etc.
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I would like to point out some important divergences between Sardinian and Romanian, that are not present in Italian:
- Romanian and Italian make their plurals in -i; Sardinian makes the plurals in -s
- the Latin groups /ce/, /ci/ is pronounced [ke], [ki] in Sardinian, but [ʧe], [ʧi] in Romanian and Italian
Dacia was part of the Roman Empire for the shortest time among the romanized provinces.
The romanized people migrated there after the decay of the Western Roman Empire.
